[, Music, ], [, Music, ] welcome to the scott harness podcast. Well, hello! Everyone today is a special day. I am super super excited. Some of my favorite people on the planet are joining us today and we’re going to discuss we’re going to discuss the sex industry and we’re going to discuss ministries that involve the sex industry and we’re going to talk about just every aspect of it.
And so just remember this that as we’re as we’re streaming live um we’re entertaining your questions. So if you’ve got questions or things that comments that you’d like to make do that, but remember, as always, you know one of the things we want you to do is this content can only get out if you like and subscribe so like and subscribe ring that Bell we stream live on both facebook and youtube and uh we’re constantly putting out. We put a new video out every single week, new podcast every single week, new content, so many different topics and we’re going to be talking about a lot of different things over the next little bit. But today, specifically we’re going to be talking to some incredible. Ladies and we’re going to be talking about what god has done in their life and where they’re come where they came from and how they are working to help rescue others, i think is – and i just i don’t even want to waste your time.
To be honest with me, i want you to jump right into this because it’s it’s really amazing one of my favorite people in the whole world. Michelle russell is um. I don’t know we’ve known each other michelle. How long have we known each other? Oh gosh?
I think, since 2006 or seven yeah, we were only like 17 when we met right, yes, but uh, but michelle is just one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. She does tons of things for triple x, church and other things, and michelle would you would you just walk into and just kind of tell us what you do, how you got started in this and just a little bit of history, sure history, how long you got Long as you need all right so back to the beginning, uh 17 years ago i was actually surfing the internet. Looking for help for my then husband who was struggling with a severe porn addiction, i want to say something that might rock some boats, but i don’t believe that everybody that has looked at porn is going to be led down a road of addiction. I don’t think it’s a great thing, but i don’t think that everyone is an addict, but my husband, then husband was a severe addict and we were looking for help. We were both professed, you know, christianity and and were in church, and it just was not talked about back then yeah so hearing the conversation earlier that people get their feathers a little ruffled and uptight.
You know about these things. We shouldn’t talk about in church. That’S exactly what left us in prison yeah was that people weren’t talking about it, and so i went on the internet. I was searching for help and i found this ridiculous website called xxxchurch.com.
No, i i’m not kidding like i. I was so upset because i thought this: is this a joke? You know the number one christian porn site was the tagline at the time, and i was just so offended by that yeah, but they knew exactly what they were doing. As i started to look around, i realized that these were people that wanted to help those that were different than what we know as mainstream christianity. You know our everyday christian, and so i did receive a lot of help there um fast forward.
A few years later. I had i was actually started volunteering for them and i still had some questions on how men could be involved in this kind of ministry. I was stuck with scriptures that talked about not letting anything unwholesome. You know come within your lens, your view, sure, and – and so i i was just really struggling and i didn’t want. I didn’t want to really make any waves with it.
But yet i didn’t have a complete piece and my boss, at the time was going to um do some event in atlanta and he was doing what was known then as a porn debate, and i had the opportunity and lucky me: that’s what i thought at the Time to take some flyers into, i was living in atlanta to take some flyers into local porn shops to advertise this debate between a pastor and someone in the industry. I didn’t know what i was doing, but i’ll never forget that day because it changed my life. I took the brochures into the first store you have to remember now at the time i’m a wife of a man that is struggling with all of this stuff sure, and i walk into this store, and i see what i still call some of the most ungodliest Things i’ve ever seen in my life and i wondered how did i get to this place and i remember oh, i have these flyers and i’m looking around and there’s not a person attending. You know like the cash register, which is unheard of and all i can see are patrons in the back rooms. You know looking at stuff they’re looking at and i look up and there is a six foot image hung on the wall.
Sorry folks, but this is reality of a woman stark naked from head to toe, just showing it all for anybody that was coming in around and i looked on looked at at this image and my gaze was struck. I didn’t see the facade, i didn’t see the plastic, i’m not going to go there, but you get the drill, absolutely sure i didn’t see the hair and the makeup. I saw a human being yeah. I saw the most beautiful woman that i’d ever seen in my life hanging on the wall yeah and i set the brochures down and i ran out of the store and i got in my car and i sobbed and i just said to the lord. What was that yeah?
What’S that? Where did that come from and i’ll never forget, i heard it as clear as day the lord said. I gave you my eyes yep. That is how i see those women. I see them just like.
I see you it’s good beautiful and i was so awestruck. I remember calling my boss saying i get it now, when the lord gives you the eyes and the heart and it’s pure it’s the right thing, and that became the journey of my life’s work with triple x, church and the sex industry. I’Ve had many women that i’ve mentored over the years that have been in the sex industry, those that have struggled with pornography and many of them ask me. I don’t understand how a woman whose husband is enslaved by something i do could love me so effortlessly yeah and i said because that is the love of god amen and so from there and i’m done and so from there we launched strip church, which is a Global network around the nation to train leaders to rise up and to go into the clubs, not wait for the darkness to show up. You know in the light places, but rather let’s take the light to some of the dark places.
Yes, and so both of those intro stories from me will help to introduce your other two guests, because i have had the unbelievable honor of walking with both of them, one in leadership and one as she discovered herself and the love of god. That’S so so good. Oh, my god, so good that is so good and that you know it’s so funny when you um, when you mention seeing their faces. That’S one of the things that i challenge myself in every aspect of what we do and i challenge pastors the same way is, and i ask them you know whether someone’s trying to plan a church or start a ministry. I just ask them and i said: do you see their faces, though?
Do you see their faces yeah you know and until you see humanity and you see their faces and you you care for them. You know, god sees our face, yeah and so that’s beautiful. So so incredible karine tell us your story. Give us a little bit give us a snapshot of of of where you come from and what you come from and – and we just want to hear your story. Okay, i’m trying to hold it together because michelle got me that was really good.
It’S really good! I agree it’s really good, so i um grew up with single mom. I have seen three siblings that i grew up with in chicago and very broken home. Very a lot of dysfunction with relationships never really had any good role models, my mom in and out of multiple relationships, and none of them just really had like a good uh healthy example for me or my sisters, and basically i was taught at a young age That the man can treat you how he wants it, and so at a young age, this is the way my mind is working and growing up as a teenager getting boys attention at an early age. I think i was 11 years old.
I would say that i already learned how to seduce a man for money because of all of my past experiences and then by the time i was 19, a friend of mine had introduced me to the sex industry. I was living on my own already out of the house by 16 and didn’t really have any money, kind of couch, surfing, trying to figure out life and really just surviving, and she said crane. You know you should maybe start working in a strip club. You know you’re, you have the body for it you’re funny like you should just do it, and so eventually i went inside one of the strip, clubs in chicago they hired me and i was actually really nervous like that. First, my first work night.
I would never forget, like i, was in the dressing room and i’m like changing in the corner, and this girl comes up to me she’s, like what are you doing, i’m like? Oh i’m trying to change into my outfit and she’s like look around you and i and i take a look and then all the women are. You know completely naked, putting deodorant on fresheners. You know like all this stuff and i’m hiding in the corner and i’m like she’s like what are you doing like we’re, we’re all naked like who cares you’re just the body. You know who cares and i was like yeah.
That’S so true like i. I am just a body, you know so then you know this is the beginning of you know me coming out of this shell and i was just pretty shy, but then, before you know it like, as soon as you start making the money like everything, just changes And so now i’m experiencing what a really good stripper. I actually am, and i start to develop this. You know fake role of being who i thought that these men would want me to be, and it actually worked so every time i would make more money. The more money would come in the more just a firm like this is where i’m supposed to be.
I was good at it. This is what i’m supposed to be doing and i think the biggest thing for me during that time. I did it for 10 years. The biggest thing for me was: i was able to gain a sense of control. A sense of power, like i felt like i was in control of my own life.
For the first time. No man can tell me what to do or how to do it, but then i started to really really grow like deep resentment toward men. Where now i hated all men, they were all pigs, they were all perverts. I knew we just wanted. One thing from me, and so i was playing the game, so i can get that one thing from them, and so it was a constant game game, but i i just wanted more of it.
You know it was like feeding my ego, my pride, and it was like the more i want it, the less complete i would feel yeah and i would say i just i had a breaking point one day i it’s kind of funny, but i was in my Mid-20S i was talking to my friend i’m like oh my gosh. I need an education. I need to do something else like what am i going to put on my resume when i leave here. You know i have nothing to put on a resume, but that i’m a stripper like that’s it and i’m like i don’t want to be like 80 years old dancing and my thongs are going to be sagging off my butt. Really.
I need to do something with my life like what am i doing. That’S a first for this podcast and that’s great. That is great. Whatever works for the epiphany, let’s bring it that’s good that is so good, saggy songs, [, Laughter, ], you know so eventually, i i go through a very trying time with the boyfriend i had at that time and we break up. My friend invites me: another friend invites me to church – and i just remember, walking in the church and seeing all these people so free happy with their hands lifted up and what it looked like like a surrender, but i didn’t know what they were surrendering to.
I didn’t really understand it. I just knew that was something that i wanted and i began my little journey of getting to know who god is and who i am in god, and then i actually still worked in the industry for five years. When i gave my heart to, christ still was dancing, and so i i was you know walking into. I was like two different people. You know a stripper at night and a christian in the day and hardly anyone knew and as much as i thought i was so good at it.
I realized what a secret you know i would keep from people, because i was embarrassed. I wasn’t proud of it, but it was all i knew how to do and i felt like i had no other choices yeah. You know so so, eventually, after five years of back and forth, trying to be committed to christ and then trying to make money not really having any other resources or an education or any job experience to get out and try anything new. It was a constant battle. I really struggled eventually um.
I was 29 i was on set. I was in my second song dancing on the stage and i’ll, never forget, like just the power of christ. In that very moment, i’m dancing to led zeppelin love, bites one’s favorite song, still, okay, but anyway, i’m dancing and all of a sudden. I i hear a passage that i had heard at church and it was. I purchased you for a price.
Therefore, honor me with your body now imagine i’m on this stage. I’M naked i’m bending over about to receive money from a man, and i can hear this over and over in my mind and i’m like oh my gosh, and it became so loud that i started to hear it. Audibly and i knew in that moment like. I think i’m having an encounter with god like this, has to be. There’S no my mind wasn’t on church on the bible: nothing like i’m trying to make money, and so this is happening and all of a sudden i look up at the customers sitting around the stage trying to hand me money and god did like a double portion Healing for me, because when i looked at them, it was the first time in all of the years where my hatred toward men had completely shattered and, as michelle was saying when she saw a human you know when she walked in that store.
She saw that yeah. I saw through a different set of lens. I saw love for these men and i felt like the lord was saying to me in that very moment crane i died for him too wow, that’s good and for him – and i just my my heart – began to change in that very moment for the customers, and I got up and i went in the dressing room through my my stripper shoes in the locker locked it and i walked out, and i didn’t tell anyone and i i left and i and i never turned back. I cried all the way home, wow and yeah. It was so uh freeing, and i just began to repent um, because i mean i’m serving the lord for five years, but i’m stripping and no one knows like i’m doing this in secret.
You know i’m just i’m like living a double life, and so anyway, what happens after that is um a few years later, i’m i knew that god was calling me into some ministry. I didn’t really know what i knew it had something to do with the sex industry, but i wasn’t exactly sure – and at this point i still hadn’t shared my testimony with anyone, because at this point some some people did know, but i was encouraged to not share It, and so i found that yeah, so i went online just looking for for um ministries, i had to do with the sex industry, and then i found a strip church network, and then there was a live training in chicago uh. Just weeks after me searching the web, and i’m like, i knew in that very moment that the lord was like this is what you’re supposed to be doing, and so this is how i met michelle and i go to the training, and i just and it had Given me so much courage, so much freedom and and to see all these amazing women that you know, we can relate to each other’s story that had the same hearts and – and it just gave me so much courage to share my testimony as well, because it was Right after that is when i was able to share my testimony for the first time with my church at that time, so it was very freeing. Oh absolutely it’s incredible! It’S awesome what an incredible story!
Oh my gosh, that is so cool. We haven’t even gotten number three. I know oh my gosh. I just want to set and just soak that you know i love. I love where um i love in your story, where you talk about how that that god just just met you and it wasn’t that you were seeking him.
He he found you which is so powerful. You know what i mean, what kind of incredible hope that gives what that’s huge, we’re gon na ask a bunch of questions as we get you know get through this, but but cr. Thank you. Thank you for your story and we’re going we’re going to keep talking. So so heather yeah um, let’s hear your story, give us a little background and and uh we just want to hear from you.
I watched your watched. Like i told you, i watched your video, so good, we’ll put a link in the description to heather. Heather’S got a youtube video that she produced that or someone produced for you. Maybe i don’t know, but it’s absolutely incredible, such a beautiful story of redemption. So um tell us, tell us your story.
Ah, it’s gon na be hard to keep it together. That’S! Okay! That’S! Okay, i don’t like dip back into this part of my life for too long anymore.
So it is it’s raw. You know, but um gosh karine. Just thank you. Yes, absolutely! Ah, you know, i don’t hear a lot of people really that share such specific parts.
So it’s healing um. Our stories are quite different. Um. You know i i didn’t grow up in necessarily like a an abusive home um. Was there dysfunction yeah, you know um.
I was born in england and my parents are um. They both grew up, pretty um, pretty low-income working class and then my dad got offered a job. We went to virginia and um, it was. It was a really small town, um, really small, and so there was kind of this culture shock and i think that was like a big um kind of a. I don’t want to say.
I thought it defined me. Was this whole thing of um, i’m different. You know we’re different and it was um. There were a lot, a lot of strictly religious people, there um very and very um kind of demanding of others about it. You know what i’m saying and we know oh yeah yeah, so it was that was just everywhere and it was well.
You know you know your family doesn’t go to church, you know you’re going to hell and and all this stuff was just regular and it’s just what i grew up around and um i’d put a bad taste in my mouth for anything to do with the word. God really for a long time, so there’s just that piece, the miracle that where i am today um and then just you know, moving forward um, you know all three of um, so i’m a middle child and both of my siblings are now in recovery for alcoholism. As well as me in addiction, so we all struggled to kind of find our way there. Um and my older sister fell into addiction at age 12.
And that’s when our home became really um just crazy um i don’t know that my family had the best set of coping tools and of course were isolated sure so um i became you know middle child already kind of withdrawn but just extremely um withdrawn introverted um i wanted friends so bad but i just didn’t feel like i could do right for wrong there was a lot of like racial tension in the town and i didn’t really know how to what to do that was right on either end with that sure and um so i i just kind of got like met a bunch of kids that were into um punk rock and metal and i was like yeah i don’t like the world either you know that was it i just wanted i wanted people to think i was a lot scarier than i was because i didn’t like getting picked on you know i didn’t like getting joked on and people pretending to invite me to things it was stuff like that it was not fun and so i was just like well just leave me alone and i got good grades i got through high school um there were a lot of fights and things like that i mean my sister was in a lot of a lot of trouble with some scary people and there were break-ins in the house and tons of car accidents and oh you’re so and so sister and so that was a lot of way i grew up around it doesn’t mean there wasn’t love in my home and it doesn’t mean my parents were trying their best and i had a meal every night and i had clothes but it was it was challenging and i i just really started developing like this um just kind of i don’t belong mentality like i’m not welcome i’m not included and that was like my narrative you know and so kind of moving forward it was like anything that looked like that it was just like another nail you know you know and and it wasn’t necessarily anyone’s intention but that was me you know that was my inherent belief and so um i you know in that town there was a lot of you know i was exposed to um sexuality at a young age just at school and there was a lot of inappropriate behavior from authority figures in that town too and um that’s you know is what it is sure so i started just kind of associating men with oh this is what they like about me and this is what they expect from me is you know don’t participate in conversations just be pretty and you know i wasn’t raised with that in my household but like it was just felt like it was everywhere to me sure um so i went to college in um in richmond uh virginia and you know i and i made it through college um i wasn’t really drinking or anything like that too heavily i just really wanted i thought if i got out of that town you know but really i didn’t know i had these deep beliefs about myself and i kept finding myself in these around people that i didn’t feel good enough to be a part of anything sure social or proactive because i had that chip and then at the same time i was surrounding myself with people that i didn’t really like what they were doing either but at least they accepted me right and that was it was like i became this like approval and acceptance junkie you know for lack of a better word and particularly with men right because now i’ve found there’s something that people like about me and they like it a lot like it’s crazy how much people like this part of me um maybe i can exploit this you know and i think a big defining moment for me was um i had there was a professor that i really admired um loved loved the class was doing really well and i wanted to ask about an internship because i thought that’s what good people do like that’s what successful people do i’m gonna graduate soon i don’t even know what i’m doing here i’m just i’m trying to be a doctor i guess you know studying science but i was just depressed and so you know i went up to this this professor and he ended up just being really inappropriate tried to you know ask me do i live alone and um beautiful and can do you have tattoos under here and start trying to move my clothes and close the door you know and that was just like it took so much courage for me to ask him and then for that to happen that was like another nail like oh it’s still you know it’s like and i’ve done work on this but it’s still it hurts right because yeah absolutely what’s behind it yeah so for someone that maybe didn’t have all that coming into that situation it would have been like ah get away from me what a weirdo but for me it was like i knew it i knew i can’t do these things and so it was like um after that i moved to l.
because i thought it’s this side of the country you know i just gotta get away and um i kind of floundered around la for a while with this degree it’s 2010 there’s not much going on in the job industry and i don’t know what i want to do with it anyway you know my dad has said you will you will be a doctor or you won’t continue to get my help um and that’s i want to be an artist or something i don’t know sure and um so i’m kind of like couch surfing i’m riding the bike around the city you know i’m trying to find like work at a vet’s office maybe or pharmacy and i’m just getting depressed and defeated and um i end up meeting a girl that was a stripper at a punk rock show and she invites me over her house and you know she’s younger than me and she hasn’t been through college and she is just living it up i mean she’s lounging around smoking pot all day and there’s just people at her door dropping stuff off you know she’s just decked out head to toe she gets manicures people come clean her car and she just tips them in hundreds and i’m like i’m working 75 hours a week at a grocery store and sleeping on a couch and what is happening you know i’ve got it wrong and so that’s like planting the seed so not to spend too much time on that but i didn’t start dancing right then but i had been in a long-term relationship with with a man and he was in the military and um active duty and that had been like another stressor in my life and that he came back and had um pretty severe alcoholism and um it was ugly and so um i wasn’t educated about alcoholism or ptsd really and i was just made it about me right you know he was drinking he was cheating on me all the time and there i am thinking i’m not good enough to fix him which is you know hearing that now it’s like and i’ve learned a lot about that but sure it’s true you know if he really loved me he wouldn’t do these things you know and um so i had my tail tucked between my legs and i went back to richmond and i was just in a depression it was like a pit just i can’t believe i’ve tried so hard on you know what i now know was like self-sufficiency right my will and what i think the world is and what’s success and i’m failing right that’s what i really thought and it felt like horrible and so i was at um another concrox show in richmond and all these girls came walking out with the band members and they were beautiful and everyone just stopped what they were doing and was like you know and there i am in the corner like you know nobody like me i suck you know and um i was a tomboy too back then you know i had never even worn makeup at this point you know i wasn’t like playing really into that but i was really seeing how that might be my only option in my mind and so i i went i met those girls i bumped into them at a store that week and i said i heard you girls they’re strippers you know like what can you tell me about that and they’re like yeah you should come by tonight and be a cocktail waitress like you’ll make a bunch of money and that’s where it started you know i felt like a celebrity in that little suburban it looked like a little you know tin warehouse with no windows but in there i was like you know britney spears and um for the first time in my life i felt like i belonged right i felt approval i was successful and um ah it’s just no counterfeit you know um but it did the trick sure yeah um it really did i mean it hooked me i thought i found my family um and i didn’t know much about like manipulation and coercion it was like if you said this you it was true yeah and so um yeah i started waitressing and then you know you get the customers that’ll say oh if only you were on the stage i would really spend my money and um you are just so much more special than these other girls you could wipe the floor with them and i was like i could do what me you know and so it was you know just progressed from there and um i remember i remember one of the house moms telling me you’re too sweet for this you know i remember to this day and it gives me goosebumps because she obviously had an experience of her own with that sure sure so i um i was in the industry for about four years um but my drinking and my drug use really took off because it was it was not easy for me to do that i mean and really don’t think it is for anyone and it shouldn’t be um but i um yeah i was really good at it you know like karine said i felt like i was highly successful you know i was top earner and you know i was didn’t have any drinking or drug issues right away and so i felt like fresh and like um big attraction and then of course you know that only lasts a certain amount of time and you have to work harder to maintain it sure yeah do things you weren’t planning on doing to keep people interested you start to realize that stuff fast and and with those new levels comes like oh i need to know more yeah sure and now i have this lifestyle i have to maintain and what was most important to me was how i looked to people around me i’m traveling i’m hanging out with people in big bands and they’re kind of famous and like a lot of people don’t know that i’m working at a strip club but i want people to think i’m doing well you know i tell my parents i’m managing a bakery you know all this stuff because i’m just so ashamed but i want i just want people to think i’m doing well and so um it was just the double life and you know what happened for me was i ran into someone who was um you know a trafficker and um you know i didn’t it i didn’t fall too deep down that hole you know praise jesus but i had a taste of it and so that was just another level of control over my life people making decisions for me having keys to my house telling me where to go what to do and um you know part of me wanted that because i didn’t know who i was and i didn’t feel like i had voice and i became kind of comfortable with the structure of it all sure be here at this time this is what you owe this is what you need to do and that felt like less pressure than having to figure out how to be successful out there you know it did and um so at some point i um i moved a lot you know i i got scared of this person and when i saw like a little exit i packed up and moved to portland in portland it’s fully nude um it’s full contact and there’s not about 90 strip clubs in that one city and so i really just spiraled and i became pretty um vulnerable i didn’t know anyone there to uh you know this is a bigger city now and so um i hit a bottom out there because god’s so good i met some people that lived in this beautiful cabin in a national forest and i’m living there with these kind people they’re offering me this job during the day um in a bamboo farm you know doing my dream job you know and then i should be able to say oh now i have an excuse this my everything’s working out i don’t have to go back but i can’t not do it and that was it for me that was like my breaking point was like i don’t have a reason to stay anymore but i i can’t leave and i don’t know why yeah i’m just the pull oh just like the pull you know of that filling that hole in me that i didn’t know god yet no interest in that wasn’t even and so i don’t want to take up too much time but my sister is in recovery she has a really strong relationship with god and at this point as part of her immense to me she’s calling me every now and then she doesn’t know what’s going on she knows i’m drinking and she starts planting these seeds and so what ended up happening was over the next few years she convinces me to come back to the east coast she convinces me to come visit her and then when i have this moment of i can’t go on i can’t live anymore she’s the person i call and that’s how i end up in delaware you know i meet a woman in the 12 step rooms and she knows this woman named michelle who has some experience with what i’ve been through a little bit and i end up in a little diner sitting across from michelle and who has just been such a a warrior um as i’m walking through this and have no voice so um that’s that’s that’s it that’s huge i know you have questions and time and all of that but just a couple of things that i heard very clear when heather was speaking you know oftentimes we as humans not even just as christians but as humans we’ll just judge a situation before we even experience it that’s true so really know all the details and so we always have these ideas about these people that are doing those kinds of things but if there’s anyone that has sat here and listened to this it isn’t it isn’t the fault of parents you know i mean it’s a community issue it’s a neighborhood issue it is a family issue it is a church issue um we see how vulnerable she was every she heather you did a great job yes it was a little long but it needed to be because it showed us exactly the progression exactly how something like this can happen absolutely thank you so much for so so good so so good no absolutely absolutely i think one of the things that’s important when we’re when we’re walking through our stories is is to let the story unfold and understand how you know it’s kind of interesting and sometimes as christians what we’ll do is we’ll look at other people and we tend to point out someone’s sin that doesn’t affect us and it’s easier for me to go look what they’re doing and you know because i want to feel better about me because i know i have a sense that i’m broken i have that i have that sense of something’s wrong and sometimes we look at somebody else when we go they’re more wrong so i feel better because i’m less wrong you know it’s like god grades on the curve you know right it’s like okay i’m i’m gonna pass them that’s right or you know whatever but you know i think across the board when it comes to anything that has to do with sexuality when it’s sexual sin i really believe that what’s happening is everybody is sensing the deep injury yet nobody really knows how to how do we deal with it right you know whether it’s the whether it’s the person that’s on the edge of the stage who’s addicted to this this image um or the person on the stage that’s addicted to the lifestyle and the attention and the money and the things that come with it this it’s still the the center of all of it is just this just this deep sense of brokenness that our flesh brings to the table and um and i think it’s a loss i think it’s a loss of identity as well i think you’ve got what and i think it’s where and i think the way it was explained best i came here who said it but they’re talking about how when you talk about sexual sin it’s typically where two addictions meet yeah so you got people who are like you’re saying there’s there’s the guys that are on the edge of the stage or girls that are on the other stage now um that are that are watching and viewing and consuming content there’s an addiction there there’s an addiction there as much as you don’t want to say it there’s an addiction there but then there’s the other side of it where the people who are producing content whether it be males or females or whatever doesn’t matter whoever’s producing the content there’s an addiction there as well and there’s an addiction to and i think there’s the physical which is the the money and the excitement and those things but there’s also the mental and the emotional and honestly even the spiritual addiction of being like hey this is this is god for me this is the opportunity for me to seize control there’s this opportunity of me to to take this opportunity i think that for for every side i think this is where our if our flesh is left to ourselves if we’re left to be to make our own decisions and we don’t have any guiding principle and we don’t have anything whatever this is where we’ll end up this is what we’ll do because ultimately my flesh desires to have something that god is going to provide if i will let him provide it then then he will provide it but ultimately my flesh will desire to make a substitute super easily it’s like oh well yeah god can provide my identity for me but i can make a substitute and i can have it now yeah and i think that’s where our flesh steps up and that’s for everybody whether you’re a pastor or whatever it’s the same thing very very true karine when you go back and you think about your family situation and i know that and i think michelle made a really important point i don’t think that we’re we’re pointing fingers at parents though but i do think about as a dad of of daughters okay so i’m a dad of daughters and you know in my church i always kind of look through the filter of of girls i always think about in the perspective of my daughters i don’t know why that just that’s how i do it so when you look back at your family history um what do you think the course of your life would have been different if there had been a dad in your life that said hey you’re beautiful you matter you’re important don’t settle for that or even could reach into your life and go hey no we’re that’s that’s not okay because that’s not what god made you for how much of a difference do you think that would have made in your life major difference i now have a very healthy loving relationship with my father we reunited when i was 29 wow searching for me he found me on facebook but seeing the life that my other siblings had that grew up with him is completely world apart and i want to say like i don’t blame my mom like mom sure sure of course not there i i really believe that my mom also had her she has her own story sure and my mom was giving her adoption and so i think that anybody who’s battling with a spirit of abandonment oh yeah objection doesn’t really and didn’t really have their own mottos to follow after sure they’re gonna do what whatever they think is the best that they possibly can yeah absolutely i you know i love my mom very much and and i believe she she tried but she was also very broken and she didn’t know the lord and she didn’t have a community to support her or help her and so there’s a lot of things that tie into that but if my father i believe i believe my father loved me very much as a child you know and and i and i believe that through my separation of my father that i was looking for a father and i actually this is so um crazy but a year before my father and i reunited i was sitting inside the grocery store parking lot and it was father’s day and i just sat in the in the parking lot crying and i said you know what lord you are the father to the father oh that’s so true it’s so good if i never see my earthly father again i accept that you are him you will be you will always be and i finally surrender and i was constantly looking for love yeah all the places and a year later and now this is when i now i leave the industry a year later i reunite with my father and the lord just really worked in my heart in such tremendous ways because of all of this but yes i do believe it would have been different but i praise god for all of it because i’m able to use my story to bless other people absolutely tell us a little bit about your ministry yeah so we are beulah strip church and a great name i love it it’s awesome i love the name it’s from uh isaiah the book of isaiah and it means that jesus is married to to you that’s good yeah and it’s just such a cool clever name right so so what we do we go inside strip clubs here in chicago and in northwest indiana and we have um been doing this for six years now but we go inside the strip clubs we share the love of jesus christ with the dancers the djs the bouncers the managers they’re very welcoming we get asked a lot like how can church lady that’s so good you know like you know jesus and strippers in the same sentence that’s wild you know and it really is the grace of god they see that we’re not coming in we’re not judging them we’re not condemning them we’re not you know trying to convince them to leave the industry or anything like we can’t do that you know that’s between them and the lord but we want to go in there and spread the love of jesus christ so good foster relationships we feel like we’re the bridge between them and the lord and whatever they make in the industry that’s between them and god but we are a resource for them we pray for them with them if if they want to transition out we have resources for them to help them with that transition and that is what we do yeah you know sometimes we we have a discussion with people you know we’ve run recovery ministries through our church for years whether it’s and it’s anything you know we deal with everything from um we had some young ladies that actually did phone sex stuff and they walked out of that and you know prostitution you name it and you know one of the things that we discuss is that you know recovery is a peculiar thing that you know overcoming something very often the best way to own it is to be involved in the the recovery of others you know it’s your recovery becomes more solidified when you share it with somebody else and that’s why i’m so thankful for y’all sharing your story and and you michelle just the work that you’ve always done and how did you just you know i don’t know it’s just really incredible um heather how how have you had opportunities um to to share kind of your story in your life with other people because what’s funny is that you have such a great way of articulating your story it’s very um relatable it’s warm it’s not um you i don’t know it’s not a glorification of something but at the same time it just feels really approachable the way that god has given you this story to tell and so and it’s a beautiful story have you had opportunities or do you have opportunities to share um your story and be able to walk into people’s lives that may be struggling yeah thank you that’s quite a compliment it’s good to know um i do share my story quite a bit just like in my obviously my 12-step recovery community um i don’t know that i address this aspect deeply at all just kind of touch on where you know my i went but like a lot of the women that i try and mentor through that have this in their background in one way or another and so i really get to use all the tools that i’ve been given in my healing and you know whether it’s a workbook or whether it’s you know the bible obviously um a lot of the people that i help you know part part of like the kind of secular recovery that i’m usually involved in is they they get to find their own definition of god right right so usually what happens is they’ll say well well what’s your god and then i’m like well i’m glad you asked as a matter of fact scripture is truth and you’re really going to need some truth coming out into this world and leaving that you know and that’s just been huge and um the video i that you saw was actually there’s a um an anti-trafficking ministry here in delaware and they asked me to just do a little bio to show um for for training purposes for like law enforcement and stuff so that was really cool too it was so good awesome so good i i just appreciated one and like we talked about it before we went on air is that we talked about the fact that um that you said that you said you just couldn’t see the circumstances that you were in because of all the problems and everything that were in front of you said you just couldn’t see a future that was outside of that yeah and i think that um i talk to people a lot about dreaming again the ability to dream again and i’ve seen it a lot lately especially with the the pandemic and such you see people not being able to see past their addiction and dream again what could life be if this was gone they’ve given up on that it’s kind of like the stockholm syndrome you get to a place where you just can’t see past what’s got you confined and i think that’s a beautiful story when we’re working with people is that just to just to know that that sometimes people can’t see the future that you’re wanting them to have it’s okay stick with it um uh kareem i love something that you said that i thought was really good and we talk about that here too is um you said you know you belong to church for five years you’re still in the industry you know and and the capacity in a church and michelle we’re gonna hit on this a second because we’re gonna talk about bad pastors and bad churches okay here in just a minute um but one of the things that i think has to be really a part of a church’s culture if you’re going to rescue the lives of people is the ability and the capacity to carry people where they can belong before they believe yeah you know and just being able to and and be able to unpack it you know i had a good friend of mine leading a small group here just tell you a quick story and he said us he came to me now this is a guy that came from another church you know like like a really deep i mean like serious religious church yeah yeah not what we are okay i mean we believe in the radical transformation of jesus church where everybody comes and everybody looks really good and everybody pretends and nobody talks about anything that’s wrong you know we’ve got it all together we walk on water in the morning for exercise or whatever and um he said i was leading a small group he said scott i don’t know what to do with it i said what is he said well i’ve got a young lady in the church and you talked about tithing on sunday and she said you know should i tithe on my trick money or not is that a party foul and he said what should i tell her i said dude you got somebody in your your small group that’s turning tricks that’s exciting i said is that not the coolest thing ever that means we’re rescuing if you don’t have some screwed up stuff going on in people’s lives then you’re not really in the water where we need to be fishing we i get excited when we when people show up and they go hey you know i’ve got i’m a drug dealer whatever i mean i just feel like that that’s where and that where we’re supposed to be you know so that belonging before you believe though heather i thought that was really i mean i’m sorry karine i thought that was really a um i just thought that was a powerful story unfortunately i know you kind of had to be incognito but i think that it is important because i think people need to walk through your door without having to carry the whole package of what is this jesus thing and and the responsibility of religion and keeping up with an appearance because sometimes we wear more masks than the world does you know that’s what i was about to say is we we um both of your stories talked about how you were kind of embarrassed to be there or nervous to be uh you know in the strip clubs and things and you talked about you know i just needed this approval and i think we all struggle with um needing to be approved of and like trying to fill a void that’s true and whether that is you know um in a strip club or whether that is watching something online or whether that is alcohol or drugs or just trying to always please somebody that was something that i really appreciated is that it didn’t happen overnight it was a process it was a hurt here and a hurt there and somebody letting you down and a discussion or an opportunity that someone could have helped a professor he should have been there and he should have been helping but instead he hurt and he dug a deeper hole for somebody and i think those are just such good points we always think when we’re talking about addiction that it’s oh they just want to be this way they decided this you know and now there’s running into it no it’s one small decision to the next small decision that buries us in a hole that we feel like we can’t get out of that’s good and i just think that was so powerful that you know we always think of just one thing but it was a life long thing that happened and different people that had disappointed to get to the point that you were in and that that’s so powerful because that’s the reality of what we deal with in a broken world yeah that’s good i’d say creating a culture in your church too i mean just from being a pastor and stepping into you know when i hear when i was listening to you guys talk and i was i was hearing things like i was embarrassed to be in church you know sitting in church and i felt like you know i didn’t belong i didn’t whatever it’s like it’s sin wrong absolutely and any sin is wrong and when we say sin it’s like oh this center that sin all sin is equal so if you’re telling a white lie or whatever you know it’s like like oh well porn producers are bad well the guys who are watching the porn are just as bad so let’s not play games here um so it’s like you know when we’re sitting but i think if you have a church and you have a place church should be the place where people are able to come and they’re able to bring the things that are burdening them and the struggles and the brokenness and going hey i got stuff and i don’t know how to fix it and i don’t know what the i don’t know what to do next and i don’t know what my next step is and i think as a church our desire and this is that church’s desire from the beginning is to be a place where that can actually happen and and i think that there’s so much fear when it comes to talking about sin that oh my gosh i’m going to get something dirty on me and it’s going to mess me up or whatever there’s embarrassment or even like we were saying before i think before we went on air we’re talking about how you know there’s people that are insecure about talking about these types of things that’s why we want to bring these conversations to the forefront and these stories to the forefront people that and i think there’s times you tell your testimony there’s times where people get tied up in the testimony like where you were um and heather those stories are incredible and where you came from is amazing but corinne what you’re doing now is unbelievable heather what you’re doing now is absolutely incredible and you’re only able to do that because the story in the life that you walk through and what god has done to you then and so now you’re able to see what’s happening now and now we’re seeing literally women and men their lives changed based off what you’re doing now michelle what you’re doing now i think that that is the incredible part of what god can do with our story even when our story didn’t go maybe the the textbook away of christianity in that you still are being used in an incredible way that you would have been used otherwise you wouldn’t be able to do that otherwise it’s good so just an incredible thing it’s good go ahead one thing real quick the importance of talking about this in the church as well because when i was dancing you would not believe like how many christians christian men that i danced now of course yeah yeah you wouldn’t get busted though because they couldn’t tell where they saw you like i can’t talk about it sorry i didn’t you know like your pastors would come in and try to like read me bible scriptures while i’m like lap giving them a lap dance like it was the most bizarre thing and so here i’m trying to come to church i want to confess my sin to the very same people that are giving me their money oh my gosh that’s crazy yeah but that’s the that’s the that is the truth that is yeah even when you were talking and you had asked karine the question about if she had had you know a father that spoke really spoke into her life um in both ways you know fostering um love and then also discipline but i have to tell you like i don’t want to break a bunch of hearts here but it’s the truth i can’t begin to tell you how many pastors kids end up in the clubs you know and so yeah like what do you do with that i mean it is a reality people don’t want to look at it but it’s a reality so i love that you know kendall talked about um it all being i mean we’re just broken people that’s true trying to find our way right and so if we could just be friendly to everyone i mean you know you can thank me heather you can thank me korean you can praise me scott on my work but the truth of the matter is i just befriended these women i just befriended heather and i gave her opportunities to see herself through love and through kindness um you know and she has just i mean i remember and here here you want to talk about friendship i mean i was supposedly mentoring her right i told her not that long ago i’ve learned more from her than she would probably ever you know when i had to go out of town not too long after i met her i asked her would you be willing to come and stay at my house and stay with my dogs and house sit and she was like what what like yeah i mean you’re my friend can you do that for me kind of thing so you just have to treat people like people yeah yeah that’s huge i think that’s what jesus is shown by the church by like the official church most of his you know preaching career um they’re kind of like hey you’re hanging out with like you’re eating at zacchaeus’s house like that’s not that’s not exactly what what christian like pastors are supposed to do but the reason why jesus did it is because he’s going to change zacchaeus’s life yeah kisses after that he’s turning he’s giving all his money away and everything else that he stole and it’s like hey he’s throwing all that back it’s like how’d that happen well you know the other pharisees weren’t willing to go to zacchaeus’s house they they knew where it was but they weren’t going but jesus went and all of a sudden lives changed and it’s just incredible so it’s amazing stuff excuse me we tend to use the word rescue a lot and not bust in your chops scott i heard it bring it on bring it on sister and it’s fine it’s fine i get it i get it but i like to reframe that a little bit you know when i look at heather and when i look at karine i just i don’t feel like i rescued either one of them that’s god’s work but what i did what i did was i befriended them and i gave them somewhat of a healthy empowerment right to walk in who they are you know heather talks about having a voice now it’s just because people were willing to actually listen that’s good sure yeah i think just real quick is yeah our i you know we’re saying how we’re broken people and if broken people put their identity in broken things and things that are temporary when that thing falls apart when it fails you when someone takes it whatever it is money house whatever it is you know you you go your identity goes with that and it does something to you but for me it has been knowing my identity in christ because that is the sure thing and nothing or no one can take that from that’s right that’s right and not like me talk about me take what you want from me but the one thing you will never take from me is who i am in the lord his word it lasts forever it’s good it’s good to preach i know that’s what i was just saying that’ll preach right you know i think i think along those same lines though i think one of the things that’s really important is that um our flesh we don’t even realize how much sin has affected our entire world our perspective on everything i’ll give you an example we i spoke at a school uh it’s not been that long ago well it’s been a few years ago anyway one of the coaches caught me in the parking lot there was a guy across town one of the pastors had been caught with porn on his computer or whatever and he just said can you believe something like that can you believe and he goes this man of god thing and everything i said absolutely i can believe it are you kidding me i said so so you’re not tempted you don’t have any temptation you don’t you don’t those things don’t tempt you i said here’s the honest truth i can absolutely see i’ve had way too many really good friends of mine find themselves in places where they blew their family up or they or they just made an incredible mistake listen we’re we’re prone to that that’s why we need a savior we jesus jesus didn’t come because we needed an option he came because we don’t have any options on our own without him there is no there isn’t any hope and i said you know here’s the truth i can look at someone else and i can see their life and i can look at their failure and i can try to try to pretend like i’m on like this mountaintop looking down at this person who whatever did whatever they did or i can go you know what that’s a that’s just a prime example of how much i need jesus every single day i’ve got a that identity caring that you’re talking about is it’s an identity that i have to lean into every day because there’s constantly these temptations to cause me to walk away from it whether it’s prestige or power or money or whatever there’s always something that’s that that my flesh and the enemy wants me to grab hold of instead of the true vine instead of the lord and so it’s a constant work you know we’re constantly working and you know rescue is kind of a loose word because rescue gives you this idea that i’m i’m been pulled up out of the way i was drowning but now i’m in the boat and everything’s good we’re constantly in a state of flux when we’re dealing with our flesh and the sin in our world i do think this though i think that when we really understand and it’s and this is an ongoing understanding of how good god is and how he loves us and how when my relationship with christ when it’s rich and white hot man there’s things i can walk through and they don’t affect me the same way i don’t look at them the same way i don’t think the same way there’s other times though that that relationship isn’t where it should be yep and and in some sense i’m operating as a phony in some ways that things affect me a lot more my compassion is unlocked the more that i walk with the lord and i go man i so need the lord i so need jesus to walk i so need i need him to come through me and i just think it’s hugely important when we’re working with anybody and when we’re doing whatever we’re doing just to understand that you’re still in this sinful body in this brain that wants to to make stupid silly foolish decisions and it’s only by the power of god working in us that’s that’s bringing about these you know any ability to walk in strength and power and and wholeness you know so it’s huge it’s hugely important so do we have anybody that online that asks a question that that’s worth asking um we didn’t have anybody asking any questions but they um they all spoke about how amazing you guys are for sharing your story and for not being um afraid or ashamed of it they um they’ve been sharing your story on their own social media on this podcast and their own social media to get it out there because it’s one worth hearing yeah absolutely i do i do have a question um i have a question so uh i was riding in the car the other day it was like i was driving to work or something and um and the radio host was talking about onlyfans.com which i don’t know if you know exactly what their kind of mo is but basically since the pandemic and things like that only fans is an opportunity for men and women to sell explicit content online um sort of like social media and um the the reason i bring it up and i want to ask a question is this is that um the way they are defending it the way that this radio host was defending it was basically that there’s money to be made um online and this is a way for people to make money online by selling out their bodies and with explicit material and um for you i for me when we talk about things like the sex industry or the porn industry or whatever i identify as a consumer because i was hooked on a porn addiction for a long time it’s something i had to deal with i had to personally walk through and god and counseling and biblical mentors things that walk me through it so i identify as a consumer um and i only understand really it from a consumer’s perspective because i’ve never produced any pornography or produced anything like that um so let me ask you this question for a man or a woman who’s maybe making the decision to move into producing this kind of content for whatever it is whether it be physical or online what would you say to them the defense is oh man it’s just money to be made what would be what would be your guiding advice because i think we have created a culture where people may be willing to watch this podcast who are having those types of thoughts and obviously with the pandemic and money strength constraints and things like that people are worried they’re trying to figure things out what would be your advice and your kind of words of wisdom and any of you can answer i don’t i don’t really mind how you do it but what would be your what were your thoughts on that for me um it’s funny you mentioned that because i’ve actually been having to go to people that i lean into for wisdom about this topic because it i find myself getting i guess like disheartened by it you know um frustrated and you know i want to say it’s such a slippery slope you don’t know what you’re going to be exposed to you don’t know the manipulation and the question out there waiting you know and um it’s i get it though because as you heard in my story i was that same person that thought it’s just money yeah i’m adventurous like i have tattoos like i’m not scared and then you know i can especially behind the screen i can handle this but i think that’s just like i just am so grateful that i have i have the you know kind of like what god tells me to do to to lean into today because then it’s just and people have to have their own experience is what gives me comfort right like i had to have my own experience and nonetheless god was still there so it’s just kind of seeing this happen that’s the painful part because i want to say i don’t want people to go through what i went through and um and knowing how harmless they can look when you’re on the consumer end right right oh they look fine they’re having fun love this and you don’t know those deep wounds that might have predisposed this person right you know and um but really for me it’s just like trusting that i’m not god sure well i don’t know what each person involved in each step of these situations is going through what’s being worked out um and where god’s going to intervene but i can just pray for people and i can speak my experience and i can be kind and try not to judge so sure yeah absolutely kind of all i have sure i like it it’s great it’s really good it’s really good it’s good i got something a little different can i answer your questions absolutely you can come on now so i think from a completely different side of it sure what a lot of people don’t know that get into webcam work or online work pornography um they think that at least in the beginning and i think both heather um and karine can can testify to this that it’s your it’s their money right they’re making money right but what happens is you sign you have to sign a contract and most of the time you don’t read the contract you just sign the contract right in 17 years of my work i cannot count the number of times that women have called me hysterical crying their lives are shattered and devastated because their work got in the hands of someone that it shouldn’t have or they didn’t want to know or or now they’re married and they didn’t tell their spouse or they did tell their spouse but they’re having their first baby and oh my gosh i don’t i don’t want my children to see it well guess what you signed the contract yes you got paid for it but that content can be sold over and over and over and over again i have one friend that worked in the industry for almost 10 years she was one of the top names in that business she left found you know her life in god and is doing amazing things yeah her name is still out there a website with her name is still out there you would think we live in america we have all these lawyers all over the place and and i’ve had lawyers you know come to us saying hey we’ll do pro bono work for anybody that needs it and guess what you signed a contract yeah yeah yeah so just something else to think about it doesn’t ever go away out there it’s always out there that’s a great point yeah and and i think one of the other things that’s important that is is less about that side but it’s more about just this just our walk and who how we perceive god you know the bible says that we’re made in the image of god and so there’s a lot of things that that that is important you know god gave us the ability to choose god gave us the ability to create i mean there’s so many things that we’ve been made in the image of god one of the things that sexual sin does the bible says very specifically is that it is a it’s a sin against our own body the own in our own image i i have said this for a number of years and i always kind of get the brow deal on it but i believe that one of the greatest reasons why we’re seeing such a rise in atheism in america today is because of sexual sin because sexual sin fragments our our understanding and image of god that’s created in ourselves so for instance when i’m listening to to you know to heather and corn talk you know when a korean talk rather one of the things that both of you guys are saying is that you’ll say well my your story began to to narrow in you you had your future began to get really really narrow yeah it got to a point where it was just this little bitty you you’re operating in this one little bitty you know fenced in space well that that’s what sin does sin brings us into a confined area where god gave you this freedom to choose and this this ability to live a life that he wants you to live an abundant life an incredible life right um sexual sin and sin sexual sin in particular narrows that down and i think one of the things that happens to us in sexual sin and i think you see this in pornography from the consumer side yeah is this sexual sin is causing people to have a hard time to un a hard time understanding believing and trusting that god is able because something has such a grip on your life um it’s hard to see god because the image of god that we were made in is is being marred and i think it makes it more difficult i talk to christians quite consistently that have narrowed down god to not really being able to do anything because the sexual sin in their life has made them believe the lie that god is not able that god is not good that god cannot whatever and so i think the other part of this thing when you’re producing content gosh it you’re not having to stand in front of people if you’re making it behind a camera or something but the image that you were made in is being marred and it affects the way you see the world see god see each other and the repercussions of that are so great because we don’t need a greater self-image we need a greater image of god when i know when i know more about who christ is and who i am in him then all of a sudden i’m fortified i’m not fortified because scott needs a better idea of who scott is sure i’m fortified because i know how precious i am to god yeah and how much he loves me and he lives in me and he has a future for me he accepts me he has a he has a plan and a purpose for my life and i think that sexual sin is such a such a a mar against that it really really makes it difficult for us to see that and walk in that freedom and the strength that comes from knowing those things it just kind of takes erodes those away until finally we we see ourselves as just worthless you know and and it’s just it’s the enemy he’s such a liar yeah it’s good when my pastor friend said one time if you don’t allow the lord to shape how you think and what you feel about sexuality you’re gonna allow the world to hold you and shape you and what you feel and how you see sexuality and the world such a you know just such a perverted way of what sex is sexual identity you know being the image bearer of god like it’s just so twisted it’s counterfeit how heather said earlier you know and so we really need to allow the word to shape how we think and how we feel and how we see uh who we are in christ and our sexuality it’s good yeah it’s good well it’s that idea that that it’s being shaped just who is shaping is the question that’s like someone’s going to be it’s either going to be the world or it’ll be god but and you have to make a decision but someone’s going to shape your view of sexuality just the question is who y’all i just can’t even i can’t even tell you how much i appreciate that thank you for being i feel like we get we’re supposed to go an hour we’ve already gone over that i feel like we can go for three hours i mean i looked down i was like i was like what just happened the time’s gone how does this happen so yeah we got to do part two right right guaranteed guaranteed absolutely um so very very very grateful um to have the conversation and you know here’s what’s beautiful about this i feel like that there was such a beautiful balance of of the mess and the hurt and the pain and all that goes with it and then there’s this beautiful picture of redemption yeah and to see y’all and and see your faces and see what god’s doing in you and he’s not even finished yet he’s just getting warmed up and and to see how you’re he’s using you to help other people i think for me it’s just such a i don’t know i just i just think it’s incredible i’m just truly i just feel honored to have been able to sit here and be a part and michelle thank you for for being willing to put all this together for us you’re just the ally awesome well i have to tell you this is the way to go out for me because i am hanging up my hat after 17 years um yes i know but it’s all good there’s some greater things that are greater things that are happening um for you karine and for the network but yeah so i’m i’m thrilled because you’re the only one i would have done this for scott well i am i’m not kidding you i’m honored and i’m grateful and i’m excited to hear the story so for those who have you who have tuned in and are part of this i we would really love to hear from you we’d love to hear the stories and and and here’s the one thing that i i think we need to walk away with you know as you look on on this screen and you see these faces you see people who god has redeemed amen you know that’s what we get to see we get to see who god is at work in and not only has he redeemed them but he’s redeemed them to be redeemers and so i love the fact that we get a chance to to be part of someone else’s experience where they go there was this day where someone came into my life and they just said hey look it don’t have to be like that yeah or they came into my life and they said hey god’s got a bigger plan than this and you’re you know he made you for more and i don’t know when that catches wind in the sale of someone’s life it’s addictive it just is addictive to see somebody be able to walk out of that so so i am absolutely grateful you know what can we have word of prayer before we dial off of here i mean would that be good michelle you want to lead us in prayer no [Laughter] such um feisty thing that’s good oh father i just come before you and i thank you so much for this opportunity lord i thank you for heather thank you for caring i thank you for who you are in them and that they shine so brightly for you amen god the transformation has been such a beautiful thing i thank you for everyone that tuned in to watch i pray that the words that were spoken here today would go out into the earth and would shift perspectives and change lives lord that more people would come to know the true you the god that is merciful the god that gives us strength the god whose kindness leads to repentance yeah amen lord i thank you for scott and kendall and this entire production but i thank you for the church yeah amen it’s this church is getting it right i’m so grateful i’m so grateful you are good in jesus name amen amen amen you guys stay put everybody amen um we we are so thankful everybody has tuned in we are going to uh ever every thursday um i’m sorry every tuesday we’re going to be dropping a video live at 11 o’clock thank you all for tuning in you guys stay put for a second stay my husband was on a zoom called