[, Music ] welcome to the scott harness podcast. Well, hello, everybody! We are super excited that you’re with us here today. We’Ve got some really exciting stuff going on, and today we’re going to be discussing a topic that i think is very complicated, and it’s one that probably affects a lot of people we’re going to talk about divorce. Divorce is a big big deal.

I think. There’S probably many of you that have been affected by it. Maybe you grew up in a household or a home where your parents were divorced, or maybe you yourself are have experienced a divorce. I think it’s gon na be a great chance for us to talk about what is the biblical perspective. We’Re gon na give you some real practical stuff, too um today’s gon na be a great time.

Let me just ask you to do one thing be sure and like this video that really helps this circulate. It helps us get the information out, the more you like it, the more this shows up in the algorithm and the more people get a chance to see it, hear it and understand what we’re talking about. Here’S the other thing if you’ve experienced divorce or maybe you’ve gone through divorce, you have a specific question about divorce. Leave us a comment. Those comments make it really really good for us to understand what you’re looking for and maybe along the way you might say, hey.

I would really like to hear you guys, discuss and unpack something that helps us pick subject matter that affects you and that helps us understand kind of where you’re coming from and and some ways that we can help you, but, as always like and subscribe, we really Would love for you to be involved with what’s going on if you’ll click, the bell on youtube what’ll happen is it’ll? Give you notifications when this is coming up on facebook, same thing be sure and like and subscribe, and and then you can have the the content coming to you. You know really consistently. Today, i’m not going to be doing this by myself, i’m joined by several people in the room, and so let me just kind of run around and introduce you to everybody before we get in the discussion. First, we’ve got kendall harness who is the pastor of our cabot campus campus?

Yes, sir yep and uh kendall’s going to be here helping us work through this discussion because we’re going to be looking at some biblical perspectives, we’re going to be looking at some practical perspectives. Uh about about divorce, we also have karen peeler in here with us as well, karen hello. This is karen’s first time on the podcast, so i’m excited about it. Welcome karen tell everybody what you do. What i do i, what does she not do a list?

It might be a shorter list. No, i i lead teams, i love my teams, counseling care help with guest services globally, and i do a lot of connections with people in a lot of different levels, but i love being on staff here and connecting with people teaching them about jesus. That’S good stuff. Good stuff, i will say this about karen people – ask questions all the time. They’Re like you know, because i send people to counseling constantly and they’ll go scott.

You know, i don’t know that i need counseling listen. Counseling is, i can’t think of a single thing that i have seen more life change through. Karen runs that counseling team her and her husband lynn, are two of the most incredible people that i’ve ever known and by the way they’re who we go to for counseling. So that’s the that’s. The cool thing is that when i’m talking to people i’m like hey, this is who i go to, because just about the time someone’s going to run down the idea of counseling because they tend to think that counseling is, you know something must be wrong.

Something’S wrong with all of us by the way i’m like this is the people this is who we talk to. This is who counsels our family? This is, who counsels our children. This is who works with us. So but it’s huge karen’s, huge and then brady gill he’s in the be ready he’s in the house.

He’S he’s running all the technical stuff, but i’ll tell you what else he does he’s a pastor here at the church and brady brings a lot of wisdom to the table too. So he’s gon na be helping us out as we as we drive through through subjects and stuff and uh. So it’s gon na be good. Divorce is uh. I don’t know.

Let me let me just ask this question who who here has had some experience with divorce? Personally, who’s been been around it through it. Had it near to you, um in your life, am i the only one i think i think you’re lying if you say that your marriage hasn’t been on the verge of divorce before i think everybody, if we’re like leveling the playing field at some point or another, You’Ve been like, oh my gosh, i’m going to kill this other person, so i know my wife has thought about killing me before. So it’s you know it’s one of those things but brady you’ve experienced it personally, yeah uh, my parents got divorced whenever i was in sixth grade so yeah that was pretty shocking. Um yeah, i uh lived with my mom since then i um i would so my parents didn’t go to like court or anything or like you know.

We didn’t have like specific days that we’d have to go, see them or whatever and so um. You know there was, there was definitely some challenging times. It was uh, very um, unnerving at times uh. It was confusing at times uh. I remember when it whenever it happened.

I had no idea what even divorce really was. We didn’t really talk about it at the church that i went to. I was forbidden there um, but um yeah. I think i was it was very. It was a very tough time.

You know some of the people that i talk to that have experienced and gone through an experience like that they they liken divorce to a death. I mean it has the same kind of mental emotional, spiritual consequences in your life, the feelings and it’s very much like a death. You know and well. I think i think that is true. It’S it’s!

It’S a death to what normal life should look like yeah. You know you you go, you know i went 12 years or whatever my life looking this certain way, and now it has to be completely. You know, turn upside down. Now i have to you, know, live my mom. I have to go see my dad every other weekend or whatever it is.

You know my normal life is not there anymore. I i have to there’s. You know this chaos that happened this confusion. That happened. My daughter went through a divorce so supporting her through.

That was definitely eye-opening and uh. We learned so much that we could then help other people through that as well. Yeah yeah – and i think one of the things that’s important and one of the reasons why i want to kind of establish a baseline is, i think, we’ve all been affected on some level by divorce, every single one of us and um. I think it’s important for us to understand this as a reality and understand that god’s word always gives us direction and strength and perspective on these difficult things, and so so, let’s jump into a little bit divorce is so devastating. Why why?

Why does? Why is divorce such a because i think in our community one of the things? Let me just throw a little caveat on your little cultural caveat here in our community. It appears that that we act as if relationships, sexuality and everything is so casual when you’re watching the 30-minute. You know show where the hospital show, where everybody’s sleeping with everybody yeah and they’re, like hey man, it’s not really a big deal.

You know it’s like you. You know you go through the drive through wind and order, a hamburger, that’s what that’s, how you order a divorce and yeah. You know um, but in reality, in real time, yeah, it’s devastating yeah! So what you know why? Why is divorce so devastating um in in people’s lives?

Just what what makes it so harsh? I think one of the main reasons that divorce is so devastating is that it impacts every level of your life. When you consider covenant marriage, you become one yeah so that spiritually, physically i’ve heard people say you know. I even think like i know what my husband’s gon na say next, you know it affects you on every single level. So when you experience a divorce, then it starts to separate and shaky foundation, your entire life yeah and relationally.

It impacts so many levels yeah that it can take a long time to come out of that and heal from that so yeah. I remember working with a lady who was recently divorced and she said her husband had left her and she said she said it occurred to me. She said i sat down to watch tv and she said for the first time that i can ever remember. I had the remote she said. I didn’t even know what to do with the remote she said i was like.

I’Ve never run the remote you know and as simple as that sounds there’s so many pieces of your life that’s affected because you’ve been with this person. You know, and and so it’s devastating you know absolutely a biblical angle on that as well – that i think super important, because i think our community i mean. Obviously our community doesn’t doesn’t honor. You know god’s word or truth, unfortunately, but in genesis 1 27. It says that god created human beings in his own image and he goes on further.

If, if it stopped there, you would, you would think there that were independent contractors in the image of god, but but the the writer of genesis, which is the author original author, is god says this in the image of god he created them, both male and female, And you guys have heard me say this before and i’m going to say it again. One of the reasons why you see such a an aggressive attack on um, the sexuality of of humanity, is that it’s, the man and the woman, the unique distinctives of those two that that that bear the image of the fullness of god, correct. And so when they’re, together, husband and wife, you have this this picture of the completeness of god. You see you see in the wife, you see the picture of christ, the the sacrificial servant, correct, um, mom’s, the one who you know, everybody gets something to eat. You know, and and oh my gosh there’s only one hamburger left, but little johnny’s, hungry and mom gives the hamburger up and mom.

You know uh. You know she figures something else out for herself. You know she’s the one who lays down her life. Dad should be this, this authority of of holiness and governing the household with love and compassion that you can you can. Everybody can can relax under the canopy of his protection because he’s going to protect everybody spiritually mentally and emotionally, and so this image is completely fleshed out in in in the me, the male and the female.

So when divorce happens, it’s a fracture absolutely to that image and it hurts us on a spiritual level and on a physical level too, because you get so used to having this other person who compliments you so well that you’re, like you, know, nicole, and i you Know are polar opposites and ninety percent of the stuff that we do, but that’s the only way our house can function. You know having three three little two-year-olds at the same time, it’s like our house is a mad house. Most the time and nicole is able to deal with all those details and stuff, and for me i’m like dude, i couldn’t even. I have no idea how you do that she’s like well, no barrett likes his chicken nuggets. This way with like a little bit of stuff inside you’re, like oh, my gosh they’re chicken nuggets yeah, it’s like, but he likes them two more minutes in the microwave.

Then nicole knows all that stuff. I would. The kids would never eat if they were left with me, and so you get this other person who’s. Like your compliment, you think about it, even even in like a non divorce scenario, for instance like that person just goes away for a death or whatever reason when you lose that person, even without all the trauma of the relationship or whatever else, it’s just a complicated Thing to walk through individually when you get used to having that other person there, and they typically are your opposite in a lot of ways, which means they have strengths, that you don’t have and weaknesses that you don’t have. And it’s like.

It’S a it’s a crazy thing. I couldn’t imagine even the physical side of it without the emotional, mental and all those pieces that i’m sure go along with it yeah it’s good. I think i think we can. I think it’s easy, though, for us to think about – and this is the part we try to fix – is we try to we try to focus on the physical um fracture, so what we’ll do is is the divorce happened, we’re trying to figure out? Oh, how are we going to make ends meet right, who’s going to get.

You know who’s going to get the house trailer we’re here in arkansas. You know so i mean you know you have all those physical things and you tend to think if we can flesh that out, it’s going to be okay but brady. You know when i hear you talk about. You know the what you experienced. It wasn’t just the physical dividing of and let’s figure out how we make this work.

There was a there’s, a spiritual, fracture, that’s harder to get to yeah. It’S harder to understand. There’S this. This disruption of what you thought, which felt safe there was this safety and security. There’S this commitment, and you know when you’re little, especially as a kid.

I know where a lot of this is coming from the kids perspective, but i think it also comes from a spouse’s perspective. This was something we said. We would stick with forever yep and there was safety in that now it’s not safe. Now what you know yeah and for me, i think you know that that safety was missing, and so i had to find something that was safe and something that i felt was safe. And so i ran to video games and i played video games like non-stop.

Like you know, whenever i had any kind of free time i’d wake up in the middle, i set alarms at like three o’clock to wake up and play video games to make sure that i got some gaming in that day i would go. I wouldn’t sleep at night and i’d go to school the next day. You know playing video games the whole night before and so that safety wasn’t there. But but i did, i found safety in my video games and you know whenever that that part of us is missing, we’ll tend to find it in other things, yeah alter reality. That’S good!

Yeah! That’S good! That’S really good! So let me ask you this karen. This is, this is one that i guarantee is in your wheelhouse, so a person believes that their marriage is having divorce they’re they’re, starting to see some signs something’s going on.

You know they’re this something. What what should a person who’s who’s beginning to have that kind of experience? What what should be kind of the the things they need to be thinking about doing yeah? I think we talked about pre-marital and a lot of times. People look at premarital.

Well, it’s before you’re married, and that is true. We recommend that you do it before you’re married right right. That’S the goal, there’s a point, there’s a point, but if not you know, i have seen premarital be very beneficial to couples who are really struggling and going through a crisis because it addresses all levels of relational communication, spiritual foundation. So a lot of times when lynn and i meet with couples in crisis, we’ll go back to that and start with the foundations, because, just as scripture says, we have to submit to one another submit to god and then submit to one another. We can talk about the roles in marriage all day long, but unless a couple is submitting to god, they’re not equipped to submit to one another, that’s good you’re right and then the roles fall into that that god has for marriage.

So a lot of times what we find is it’s that one stone so to speak as you’re laying the foundation for your marriage. That is not there and they don’t understand that. Really what we do is a spiritual. You know it’s a spiritual thing. The holy spirit works through us in marriage to reveal jesus to the world, so unless we’re connected to god, then adequately connected to one another, we’re not going to have the things in marriage that god designed for us.

No, absolutely absolutely so get help! That’S right! Let’S reach out and get help, don’t be afraid to say: hey. There is a uh, a light on just like in your car. You know lynn likes to call him idiot light.

You know when it comes on he’s like you’re gon na take that car somewhere and get help right, yeah right, he’s, broke, go, get help, sure, that’s good sure. You know one of the things that i’ve counseled couples with and i’ve seen it work years and over over the years time and time again is that pushing them to pray together. You know prayer is so intimate and what i mean, what i mean by that is, is that i will send couples home up when i counsel back in the day. I would send couples home and i said here’s your only homework assignment is. I want you to go home and and tonight after every all, the kids are asleep everybody’s in bed or whatever you have kids or whatever um.

I want you to to hold hands, and i want you to take turns and whoever goes first or whatever. We need to flip a coin before you go home because some of these people are like on them. They’Re in two vehicles. They’Re, like you know, that’s over you go first, i’m not going next thing. You know they’re in a fist, fight before there’s a little spray, but um.

Definitely, but you know you hold each other’s hands and i want each one of you to pray out loud to the lord yeah and uh. What i found is is that is that that intimacy, you know we’ll role play sometimes in front of each other, but you begin to hear your spouse’s heart and prayer and, and god begins to soften you for your spouse. You know because we over time we harden ourselves to one another and all we can see is the the problems what’s wrong, what we don’t like you know, and i’m not talking about extreme cases, we’re going to get to abuse and stuff like that, i’m talking about Where, where two people have, for whatever reason grown apart become callous to each other, whatever that prayer breaks down that stuff – and i can’t tell you how many couples after a few weeks of counseling and having them, pray every night together, yeah how it’s made a completely Different relationship and they’re discovering things about each other. They didn’t even know they see each other in a different way, and in fact it was so for me it was so intimate having couples. Pray together, like that, i started telling couples that were dating that you’re not allowed to pray together out loud.

It’S too intimate, listen, you’ll be trying to do the right thing. Next thing you know you’d be in trouble. So now you, you too, find you a good public place and pray out loud with your bible. There you know, but for couples man, it’s amazing! How hearing your spouse’s heart pour out to god, what how god causes you?

He runs it through this filter and when it comes back into your heart, you you receive it better, yeah and just praying together and a lot of couples. Don’T do that and – and you know it’s huge – it’s important – you know even if you’re separated, even if you’re you know what i mean this is. Maybe your spouse travels um, get on the phone yeah pray with each other. You know if you see your marriage going down that road and if you can now don’t get me wrong, i’m certain there’s somebody that’s going to drop a comment and we would love to hear your comment by the way. Yeah, they might say, hey.

My spouse doesn’t believe in prayer he’s not going to pray or she’s not going to pray or whatever i get that that’s a whole different myth, but if, if you’ve got the slightest chance that you two will pray together, that’s a step. Take that step. You know, and then the other part of it is, is counseling yeah. You know, one of the things that um is hugely important is having another voice. Yeah.

There comes a point where you’re just not willing to listen to the voice. That’S hurt you or angered you or made you bitter sure, and you have to have another voice. Speaking in it’s almost like your pride, won’t let you that you’re, like you you’ve, made so many arguments that were wrong or on wrong pretenses or whatever. But when that other person steps in and says the same thing that your spouse has been saying and they’ll. Probably look at you and be like hey.

I’Ve already said that it’s like yeah, but now for some reason, your pride’s out of the way you can actually you know, engage the the content at face value instead of having to engage the person necessarily who said the content. So i think another thing too, that um and karen you correct me on this. I always, i think, one of the big issues that i found with couples when i work with them, is that just everybody blaming everybody else and no one ever taken any responsibility, and you may have a very legitimate problem: yeah and you go here’s what my spouse Is doing, but you also have to ask the question what part of this is me? What part of this is my fault, absolutely sure you know yeah, i think what you said is a very practical way to apply that connecting to god and to one another. Is prayer if you can pray with one another absolutely do that, but you also have to stop the bad habits and blame is one of those.

Oh man is huge. I usually teach through galatians 6, where it talks about bearing one another’s burdens and taking responsibility for your own conduct so to repair a marriage. You have to essentially separate – and i’m not talking leaving the house but i’m saying separate from your patterns yeah that you have been doing because they’re not working yeah, so stop doing that and then start practicing the things you know god will honor and god will bless. Galatians 6 sit down and read it. It’Ll walk you all the way through it, take responsibility for your own actions and then pay attention to what seeds you’re sowing, because god will not be mocked.

You reap you harvest what you plant, you know. So what seeds are you planting? So the very practical way to stop a crisis is to stop feeding the patterns. You know, do not work and blame is definitely one of those yeah. That’S huge, it’s absolutely huge yeah.

It is so there’s some there’s a few things. You could you could be kind of putting into practice. If you find yourself, you know, there’s some signs, there’s some stuff. You know we’re not talking we’re. Not you know, um.

You know scott. What’S the first sign? Well, if y’all are not sleeping in the same bedroom, there’s a sign. You know if you’re uh, if you know, if you ain’t, been talking to each other in a while, it’s a sign, yeah yeah, i mean marriage is like a house plant. Man it’s hard to keep alive.

It takes constant maintenance, you know so so you got to be working on it. So here’s what we’re going to do we’re going to look and see what the bible says about divorce um. I think that’s going to be a part that we need to kind of drive into um. You know and we’re going to deal with this we’re going to prob. This is going to be in two parts.

I’M just going to tell you guys right now: we’re going to have two parts there’s no way we can get to all of it and, and one part we’re going to be dealing with, and we may oscillate back and forth between these. But one part we’re going to be dealing with, you know what do you do and how should we respond and how do we work to try to save our marriage because we believe here that the number one goal should be reconciling the relationship and saving the marriage? Absolutely um, but then, along with that, though divorce has happened, you know what now, what is that? What do we do now? Where do we go from here and we’re going to talk about that too?

But i think we have to start with. What does god say, and what do we see in god’s word, concerning divorce and malachi 216 is a verse that you’re gon na you’re gon na hear a bunch from from christians and and others, because it is the word of god and here’s what it says. God says, for i, hate divorce says the lord now um i think. Sometimes when people read that they go well, the god must hate me. It’S not what he said.

He did not say that he said he hates divorce because of all the things we’ve just mentioned. You know, and so much more it has so many the consequences, they’re devastating the pain. You know you think about the number of of kids that have been affected. You think about the spouses that have been effective. I mean i can’t think of how many people that i’ve counseled with ladies and men that their spouse left them.

It just absolutely guts them. I mean it just does it’s just so, even when it was like mutual, even though it was a mutual yeah, whatever you’re like oh yeah, we we both talked about it. We felt like it was the best move and at first that’s that’s okay, like that’s enough, but then later there’s these issues that come up and they’re like oh well, yeah. It was mutual and stuff, but still there’s this there’s the shrapnel sort of in their soul. From this divorce bomb that went off in their life, so yeah just rough good.

It is so let’s talk about some biblical reasons for divorce and i want to pause for a second just say this there’s but one reason singularly in scripture for divorce. But it’s it’s grounds for it not a reason for it. I think that’s, probably a better way to interpret it. Um jesus spelled out for us that this relationship in marriage, according to god’s word, is a covenant relationship, that’s ratified, um and it is consummated through physical intimacy sex and that’s what puts two people together. That’S what seals, the commitment that they’ve made with god and each other and and so jesus says that adultery is one of those things that breaks that covenant commitment.

So so the question is – and this is a question we’ve been asked – so is adultery, a biblical reason for divorce karen. You want to answer that. That’S a great question is adultery. Yes, it is that’s right. Yes, it is clearly um in in scripture.

It is a reason for divorce, but you know anytime, you look for a reason to divorce uh, it’s problematic yeah. What we want to focus on is how do i save my marriage? You know we’re we’re all born into sin yeah. So no one is perfect. That’S right: there are seasons of life where sometimes as human beings – i i say we always have this chronic condition called humanity yeah and we’re not going to be delivered from it until we see jesus.

But if we have seasons of our marriage that are really difficult. Yes, the bible does say that adultery is one of those that you can divorce sure, but as followers of christ, we want to try to save our marriage, to honor the covenant to connect to god during all seasons and there’s healing i have seen it. I’Ve worked with couples. It is possible, that’s right to process through those things heal from it and have a wonderful marriage. So for me yes, the bible does say that.

But the goal is to save the marriage and it’s possible get the help. You need work through. It yeah. Well, you know god’s, a god of redemption. Yes, you know, so he raises the dead.

Absolutely he heals the sick. I mean it’s constantly this constant state of repurposing and rebuilding and and replenishing and and like we said, there’s this relationship. That is, that is it. It is a commitment before god between two individuals, and i think the deal is is that you know when it comes to divorce a lot of times. We focus on the other person which, no doubt you know the other person is instrumental in this whole thing um, but at the same time you you’ve also got to understand that you made a commitment to god and it’s like well god didn’t do anything wrong.

You know it’s like and so you’re bailing out of commitment you made to him that you were going to be with this other person and it’s like yes is this grounds for it sure, but, like i’ve talked to several people, sorry, i’ve talked to several people. Who’Ve been through this scenario, where their spouse cheated on them in some way, shape or form and you’re like is that grounds for dwarfs like? Yes, that is grounds for divorce, but at the same time that’s gon na. Let you out of the commitment you made to your spouse, but at the same time, there’s gon na be this commitment you made to god that i don’t that’s not gon na. Really let you out of that you’re gon na have to you’re gon na have to deal with that and that’s gon na be stuff.

You’Re gon na have to work through yeah as an individual. I think that part’s a struggle for a lot of people. I think it’s kind of, and i’m gon na, be i’m not laughing at anybody. Okay, but here i’ve i’ve had couples that i’ll sit down with they’re like man we got ta get divorced cause. We argue all the time yeah, i’m like!

Well. What? If you just stopped arguing all the time what if we worked on the arguing fire, you know what i’m saying i mean it’s like you know my ankle’s always bothering me. I think i’m having my leg cut off just cut my it’ll stop hurting legs for sure, but we have to keep changing this car man, i’m getting rid of the car. We think that way, though you know – and i’ve said to people for years and it’s true your best chance of that relationship – that marriage that you dream of is the one that you’re currently in yes, you know, and and so, if you’re gon na get there.

This is the one to invest in here’s the other part that we we’re. Always this optimist about what we don’t have yeah and we think well, you know what it’ll work better over there. Well, if this guy i’m married to right now he’s a knucklehead, and he does this and this this, but these other guys out there they’re, not better here’s the thing you’re going to get another human being if you’re going to marry. You know what i’m saying and when you get and when you get another human being he’s underwear on the floor too yeah when you get another human being involved in your life, what you’re going to find is you’re going to find that hey. You know they’re going to have, may not be the same problem they’re going to be a different problem.

You know, i think the goal is always to put the work in and try to save the marriage. I understand there’s going to be situations where that doesn’t happen. Sure and then we’re going to step over into the messiness of divorce, and what do we do after to heal with that, but on the front end, put the hard work interesting. It’S hard work after divorce, too yeah i’ve helped people on both ends. It’S not easier.

It’S a piece of paper, but it’s a lot of relational, that’s right fractures that you have to deal with after divorce, so put all your energy and work into before. That’S right, you divorce! No, that’s exactly that’s exactly right! So jesus does speak to adultery being grounds for divorce. Here’S what he says he says, but i tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality makes her a victim of adultery.

Anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery, um and and and elsewhere jesus talks about specifically that if you leave them ex, you know other than adultery. You know it’s it’s. You can’t leave your wife or spouse other than adultery. So, anyway, my point, the point that i want to make to that. That i think is important is that the relate the sexual relationship between a husband and wife, god holds very high and deer, and it’s it’s a high and holy thing.

Sexual immorality is a big issue to god. It’S not a big issue in our community and one of the things. The reason why it’s not is our enemy wants us to continue to to degrade the value of the bonding agent that god gave us for two people to stay together for a lifetime and and sex as i’ve talked about before, is the super glue of a relationship. It’S what holds us and bonds us together, and god wanted that exclusively to be kept, and he says over and over to be in that relationship that covenant relationship between a husband and a wife. And so i think one of the things that we have to get get in our mind is: is that you live in a world.

That’S that’s out to steal what you have, and so how would a thief if they had influence over you? You know get something from you. I think one of the things they’re going to do is make you feel like it or believe that it’s not that valuable gosh. That’S not that big of a deal just leave the keys in the car. You know: that’s not that right.

Of course he doesn’t tell you to do that because he wants to steal your car. You know the the enemy that you and i are facing in this world is savvy. This dude’s, like he’s savvy and what he wants to do is he wants to get something that god wants you to have, and so you know the closer he can get us to an immoral thought process, the closer he can get to in more behavioral patterns. The closer he can get us to to losing um a relationship that really really really really matters, and so so we have to keep in mind that that this relationship, this covenant relationship that is sealed and secured through um. The consummation of sexual intercourse has to be protected.

You know you got to put some fencing up yeah, you know. Yes, it does. Jesus say that adultery is the reason why he does. He does, and i want to talk a little bit about that, because i do believe that one of the things that we run into that, i think, is a mistake and i’ve seen this happen before you’re married, your spouse, cheats, okay, let’s just walk into that. A little bit and i’m going to throw another one at karen, so so karen your spouse has cheated on you.

A person’s spouse has cheated on them um. What do you? What what do they need to do? What at that point, what what’s? What?

What needs to be like first move some of the first moves. Yeah first move is get a counseling appointment. That’S right! 100! Yeah, that’s good!

There is no way to walk through that. There’S too much betrayal, too much pain and hurt associated with that. You really need that person that can mediate help. You see things clearly because there’s so much pain. You know and another thing to really heal from a relationship that there’s been adultery.

You have to sit down with one another. You have to confess your sin yeah and then you know one of the things that we recommend is. You have to write a letter yeah to the other person that you you were in a relationship with and say this is done. This is ending and you mail it yeah. So in other words, fresh start yep.

Now we rebuild yep. So there has to be that initial responsibility taking responsibility for your actions and then putting all your effort into your marriage, to heal, connect to god and then heal, and i think for that healing to even have a chance. What i’ve always done over the years is is i feel like that. We need to really get into this. Where this wound is, we got to get.

We got to clear some stuff clean some stuff out before we start trying to stitch something up, and it’s got infection trapped inside of it. What we’re going to do first is we’re going to completely expose it we’re going to get to the very bottom of it all the questions the spouse that’s been cheated on needs to have. The reason why counseling is so important is that you need a navigator for something less painful number: two. You need a hostage negotiator, you know yes and then. Thirdly, you need you need someone that helps.

You understand the rules of this because here’s how it works. If you don’t get as the one who was cheated on, if you don’t get all of your questions answered, then these questions are going to linger and every time we try to build something forward, we’re going to rip the stitches back out and we’re going to be Back to square one, and at some point you get fatigue and you begin to to not believe that healing and reconciliation can happen. So we want to. We want to start first by, let’s expose what happened completely. Let’S get to the bottom of.

There could be no secrets, you have to have a safe environment where questions can be asked and they have to be answered with raw brutal facts, and you just got to get to the brutal truth of this um and once once that’s happened, then we can begin Reconciliation then we can begin. You need to know, first of all, if you’re the one that has to forgive the sin against you, you’re going to want to know what sin, what sin do i have what’s sin, how was i sinned against um? The other person needs to know the by confession: the the devastation that’s one, but i think the confession also brings about healing the bible, says: confessor sends one to another, and so we’ve got we got to get to the bottom of this thing and we’ve got to Understand fully what we’re up against before we try to rebuild. What i see couples do very often is that hurt happens. They quickly throw a bandage on top of infection.

They jump right back in to trying to pretend like everything’s, okay and then they linger along until the infection kills them. We need to get to the bottom of it and we need to get it cleaned out. We need to get it dressed well and there’s a process of coming back together and here’s another thing and karen. I want to see your thoughts on this all right, so here’s i used to tell couples this all the time. I would say this the moment that adultery happened at that moment: you’re not married anymore and and the person who has been cheated on you now have a choice as to whether you want to remarry this person or not so you’re back in a courtship phase.

In fact, the last thing you want to do is jump right back in bed and, let’s try to figure fix this with more sex. You know, what’s what’s broken, let’s just add more to it. Yeah you right now are single. Both of you are single and you’re. Going to make a decision whether you’re going to marry each other again and the reason why i feel like that’s important is because the person who was cheated on needs to know that i have a choice now, yeah and, and my choice is, do i want to Reconcile or not that’s important and i always pushed him to reconcile the marriage.

But what i also say is: let you, let’s get all your questions answered, let’s make sure you’re satisfied with where you are and let’s work on a process of reintegrating back together because later on, if, if you enter back into intimacy with this person, you’ve re-ratified that Covenant you’re married again, then so now, the sudden, you know you can’t later go yeah, but he cheated on me six months ago. Now i’m gon na default. Back to that, and now i want to get a divorce yeah. So now the sudden, it’s it’s very complicated and there’s not really good road map for this, because we’re operating off of god’s road map, you know, yeah god gave us a road map you’re supposed to sleep with a trailer and um. So i mean how do you see it?

Do you feel that way, karen or what do you think about that i mean that’s. I did that several times and i just said look i need. I need you to know that you have a choice in this and by making that decision we’re going to work on some things. There’S a process, but once you re once you enter back into this relationship again, you’re saying hey, i commit myself to you again we’re committing anew to each other and ratifying this covenant that was broken and we’re going to enter back into marriage again is what we’re Doing right now we’re not we’re not! That was broken that that that covenant was torn.

Do you see it that way? Yeah? Definitely i think that first step. Well, we talked about the letter. You write it down, you confess yeah, you have open communication and lynn always says you know whether it’s the husband or the wife, whichever one.

Basically, what you did. Is you moved into a glass house yeah because to be able for there to be total forgiveness, there’s going to be questions you’re going to have to answer them you’re going to have to rebuild trust so yeah? It is a starting over again. You have to rebuild that relationship, that’s broken. It is one of the most destructive things that happens in the marriage and we obviously the bible, agrees with that, because it’s one of the reasons why you can divorce so relationally.

It is a deep painful hurt sure so to move forward, as if nothing happened is not a wise decision yeah, but a lot of times couples because we, you know in our society counseling is not really normalized. Unfortunately, uh they’ll come in after the third affair. Yeah or you know it happens every weekend. So it depends on the couple everybody’s different, but usually there’s been more than one affair yeah, so they’ve tried to just okay, it’s fine. Let’S move on that’s right and then the second one happens so yeah.

I totally agree there needs to be acknowledgement, take responsibility for it that open confession and then a decision. Am i willing to put everything into this marriage to save it, to forgive sure, to walk through healing, and that may mean going back. You know. Sometimes this behavior was learned or they’re trying to fill a void that they have sure um. So at times we separate couples, you know the the man will go see my husband and the wife will come, see me and will work through deep pain and hurt sure and then bring them back together.

So every situation is different, but yes, i totally agree that you have to have that moment of decision absolutely, and i think also too. I had one couple that i’ll just tell you guys a story i’ll spare. I will never use names or anything, but i’m going to use uh basic things that happened, but i had a couple the you know. The husband had cheated on the wife and i’d been through this a number of times with couples where the one who cheated um. Never really ended the affair so we’re over here.

You know i’m wasting my stinking time counseling with his knucklehead and he’s still having an affair, and you know – and you can never get through the problem if, if the one who’s the offender wants to continue to offend, you know and they’ve already they’ve already learned the Comfort of a duplicitous lifestyle – i’m gon na be husband dad over here and then i’m gon na be over here boyfriend, whatever clubbing over here thing and uh. I remember we were in a we were in a meeting. We were counseling and uh. She said, i think, he’s still seeing her. I really do i think there he said, i’m not i’m not just i promise you, i’m not, and she said he still got her number in his phone.

I said well give me your phone and i called her. I called her on the phone right there. While we were sitting there, man he’s the best thing ever. I said: hey susie q. No, i said i said susie q.

I said huh you seeing so-and-so and she said yeah. He was just here last night, i’m on speakerphone, so i’m sitting here counseling with him and his wife. She said yeah, she needs to tell him and he needs to stay home. You know – and i was like so anyway there it was. You know, but you know what, though um, that that marriage worked out and is unbelievably strong today as tumultuous and crazy.

As you see that thing it worked y’all and that marriage is crazy, strong now, i’m not making that up yeah, you know and uh. So but those things happen, but you disclosure, honesty man you got to get to it. I just i was frustrated. I was like you mean tell me: i’ve been was like four or five weeks of this counseling putting up with this like they thought i was like the spiritual referee yeah. I was like give me the phone yeah.

Well, you know they actually didn’t come back to counseling, but their marriage is stronger now, but in counseling you know going back to that letter. One of the reasons that’s so important is you put the name of the person in the address and the couple actually mails that dang right i mean it’s done. That affair has ended, that’s right, no longer having a relationship with that person. So it’s that moment of decision yeah, the, why you know the wife or the husband, whichever one it was. You know.

I know this happened. We want our marriage to work, so there will be no more connection. Yeah with you. That’S right! Moving forward period period period, i’ve had i’ve even counseled couples where you know um.

I’Ve told them that you, you you’re gon na change, jobs, yeah, oh absolutely, absolutely yeah! You got ta get you’re gon na have to quit. Well, what do you mean? I’Ve got to change my career, oh yeah, yeah. You changed your career, you when you changed your sleeping circumstances, you and someone else.

You wasn’t in it for the paycheck, only yeah, so yeah. So no you got ta. I mean here’s. The thing you go to the doctor and you got a tumor the size of a grapefruit. You don’t want to go away, taking vitamin d and vitamin c to try to figure it out.

No, you got to do something invasive. You know. Jesus said god, your eye out, you know what i’m saying i mean what if that was real, that’s right. Not only will you not be able to throw the bass, that’s for sure, dumb, but anyway, so yeah, um, luke, 16 18 says this. Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery um and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery as well um.

So question we’ve gotten is you know we got married for the wrong reasons. So let’s say this: this couple: uh cheated on their spouse um at the you know, however whatever, and they left their spouses and they’re together and now they’ve. You know maybe just radically gotten saved or they’re, whatever they’re trying to or an even simpler one man. We’Ve had people that literally got married when they were living a certain lifestyle together, um that they weren’t saved, that they weren’t in church. But then one of those things they come to church they get, one of them gets radically saved and the other doesn’t, and it’s like one of them is like hey well when we got married when we were dating.

This is what this is, how we bonded. I met you doing this, you know we did. This is what we did, we did, we did the drugs and we drank – and we did all these things we slept around and we had all this fun and we partied all the time. This is what we did and one of them’s like no yeah, but that’s wrong. We can’t do that.

It’S like when did that happen, it’s like. When did you make that decision? You know it’s like. We didn’t have a meeting. We didn’t whatever you just go to church all of a sudden, now you’re saved, and i’m like out here, i’m the bad guy.

Now, when really you were the one that started this and it’s like those are things. I think that in that all of a sudden now they’re like now, what do i do? You know it’s like we got married and we were doing those things and now i feel like it’s wrong and i need to fix it. What do i do now? Yeah and paul talks about what it means to be married to an unbelieving person and i’m actually we’re actually going to drive into that in a second.

I think that’s going to be a really good conversation, because what does happen when we’re unequally yoked is what the bible says yeah. So what happens when we’re unequally yoked with this spouse um, but in this one in this instance, though, they got married and they both didn’t leave their spout. They didn’t get divorced for the right reasons and they’re married now. Are they constantly committing adultery? Are they are?

They so does that mean now that do i need to get a second divorce, because i’m married to this person and we’re together, you know. So what what does that look like and and what kind of you know what kind of counsel do we give somebody? That’S that’s remarried, but you know they came out of their first marriage for the wrong reason. Exactly okay doesn’t make sense yep. So so what do we?

What do we counsel them? What do we tell them? You know for me, i’m gon na throw mine out there for me. What i do is this, is, i say, look you know, there’s no doubt there’s consequences to um, there’s consequences to the relationship not being formed in the the right context. Correct there’s, no doubt yeah, and i think david and bathsheba is my example that i think about yeah.

You know how to eliminate god’s ability to bless, that’s exactly right, and so at least early on sure, and so you you wind up with you know a lot of you know significant issues, sure you wind up with um. You know you wind up with all kinds of baggage that you’re going to bring into this relationship you’re going to wind up with with all kinds of junk, that’s going to come from that um, but can god ultimately bless that or does it does it remain? In sin, or can it be redeemed sure and again, david and bathsheba would be the one that i would go to. God ultimately did bless david’s marriage. He didn’t, he did redeem it eventually.

You know so they they have. They have solomon, one of the greatest kings of israel’s history is, is their son and the heir to the throne, heir to the throne, but they did lose a baby. Yep and david’s kids are freaking wild his whole life absolutely trying to kill him. I mean they’re. Just you know it’s a it’s a freaking mess.

I mean it’s like south arkansas. I mean it’s unbelievable. You know i’m just kidding south africa y’all know i’m just joking. I’M only messing with y’all, you know i’m just kidding but anyway, so yeah, there’s that and um, and so so you know we tell people that that that have entered into that kind of relationship that you know, god can bless it. It’S not about getting divorced again, but i would say what you said karen about going back through that premarital counseling.

That would be a great chance for you to go back in and get it right. Do it right this time, yeah, let’s, let’s get it! Let’S get it right and um, you know and kind of go from there. It’S never too late to go back. No, it’s not go back a step and go hey.

You know what we we’ve hard charged down this one path and it was wrong. That’S right! Maybe i didn’t know – or maybe i did know – and i didn’t listen uh, but now you know now we need to go back and reset this and it’s never too late. To do that. You know it’s never too late to go ahead and go back and get it right.

That’S exactly right! So let me back up because i you were onto something and my computer was advanced forward and we didn’t get the abandonment part. So you were on the right page: [, Music, ], it’s okay! Well, my phone, my phone showed up on my computer and it should be challenged among them. My phone showed up on my computer shut down.

All my windows. Stacy came in a minute ago with my phone. She had my phone, so i’ve been like off. You know it’s been off the whole time anyway, so abandonment, so we’ve adultery, is a reason for some people have said. Is abandonment were y’all wondering what was happening yeah?

They were like we were just following my gosh so anyway, abandonment. Is that a reason for divorce? Let’S talk about abandonment, a little bit um there’s, what’s called the abandonment clause in scripture and that’s first corinthians, chapter 7, verses 13 through 15

Which says, which is the example that you gave, which is and what basically happened here, is you have two people that are both? Maybe they start out as unbelievers yup so having fun hanging out, matching the club drinking drugging and doing all that and then one sudden one gets saved one of them. One of them’s radically saved so whoops and and paul was seeing that a lot you got to think paul is in this early, which we see it a lot too yeah.

It happens all the time, but the church of course was like joe’s bar and grill yeah. It was true, it was ridiculous. It was more like electric cowboy yeah, they were doing all kinds of weird stuff. Remember there was the the guy who was with his dad’s ex no, not his mom stepmom that mom yeah yeah yeah in church, like hey, dude, yeah yeah. They were like good job good one fella, it’s a mess, but anyway, so here’s here’s what arkansas.

So so? What happens is is that you know paul is giving them counsel and basically here’s what he says. First corinthians 7 13-15 says and if a believing woman has a husband, so this woman has been radically safe. She has a husband who is not a believer and is willing to continue living with her. Now.

Let me give you the requirements that that you’re – not might you might not be seeing in this verse, but what paul is inferring is if she wants to continue serving god, she’s going to continue serving god, god has to be number one in her life she’s going To keep on mission and ministry and if her unbelieving spouse wants to stay as long as she’s still pursuing christ and she’s going to be living for him if the unbelieving spouse says okay, i can live with that. Yeah then paul said: let him don’t leave him. He says, he’s, don’t don’t leave her yeah says four um leave him rather yeah verse, 14.

For the believing wife brings holiness to her marriage and the believing husband brings holiness to his marriage, so in other words, the reason why you would stay in that marriage is because you’re the chance that that your spouse, children and everybody else that you’re connected. At that point, you’re their chance for them to know christ you’re going to be the example in front of them, you’re going to be the voice to jesus you’re, going to be the word of god living among them.

It’S a god of redemption you’re the redeemer you’re, the family. Redeemer of this you know you’re the unfortunate broken family yeah. This is this is you’re the only chance of redemption. For them sure verse 15’s got a big butt on it. Yeah, if the husband or wife, who is a believer, insists who isn’t rather a believer, insists on leaving, let them go yeah now.

This does not say you can divorce them right. This is let them go. Let the believer leave, that’s the non-believer, that’s right and, moreover, it’s not about divorce, though it’s about separation, correct because he never said he never mentions divorce at all in this passage at all. So this is not hey, you know what he don’t want to. He don’t want to stay with me, so i’m divorcing, that’s not how it worked.

Now. I still go back to this. The only place that i can find in scripture and i would love for you to drop a comment. If you want to argue it out, i would love to see what you have to say, but the only verse of scripture that i see grounds for divorce – that’s given in scripture is one given by jesus, and he you know re gives, helps us re-understand. What divorce really is because, obviously the the hebrew people back moses – they didn’t have it right and he’s like.

Let me run a correction comb through this. You only can get divorced based on adultery now. This unbelieving spouse can leave you now if they leave you and they go into a relationship with someone else that is consummated now you’re released yeah. That’S how i would see it yeah, but up until then you can be separated, but it doesn’t mean that you’re divorced. You still have to operate as a person married to someone else until that covenant has been broken.

So i’m not, you know well and he says, and he continues on in verse 15. He says: let them go in such cases. The believing husband or wife is no longer bound to the other, for god has called you to live in peace. He doesn’t say for the for the believing husband or wife is no longer bound to the other, because god wants you to marry someone who’s a believer. He says, for god, has called you to live in peace, meaning that he doesn’t want you to raise real problems in your family, fighting this person to stay, who doesn’t want to stay if they want to leave, let them leave and because god has called you live In peace not necessarily saying let them leave and you can divorce them he’s not gon na divorce them move on and get to another relationship.

That’S right! God has called you to live in peace, meaning don’t cause turmoil in your family. I think god does that, for two reasons is number one. You don’t know when that other person may come back, you let them leave in peace, and you go hey man, you know what okay i understand and you let them leave and you don’t raise cain and you don’t call names and you don’t do all those things That person may come back later and go. You know what man i i walked out and i shouldn’t have.

You know i was wrong. I should have i we need to fix this and they may, and that may give that opportunity as to where, if you cause a huge problem and you’ve got all these fights and whatever else, and that person really can’t come back because you’ve you’ve alienated them. No you’re exactly right, you said you right, you right. I think that first peter three and one goes hand in hand with that. You know anytime, we focus on um.

Can i divorce? Can i not divorce again? Our focus is to win people to jesus and first peter three, and one reminds the wives that husbands that refuse to obey can be won by their conduct. You know, by the way they reveal jesus to them to them. So there’s never a reason.

Uh to blame, to lash out to essentially act like the devil, so to speak, but to model jesus and reveal him in your home, even in the toughest situations well and again, even in even and again – and this is where i think we have to draw this Line again because i think in our society the two are the same: they get confused separation and divorce yeah. There is a place for separation inside the context of marriage, but even but even in non-abusive relationships. I think here he’s outlining that separation can happen without divorce. Having to be at the first option, they were like: hey, okay, you can separate from your spouse and then times sometimes you need a minute. It’S like.

I need a minute like i need. I need to walk away for a minute, and that doesn’t mean that the relationship is over just means. I need a minute, and you know it’s like and that being able to have that. Obviously, separation is not something that we like would love, but at the same time it’s like hey, there can be separation without divorce and then there’s the ability for reconciliation divorce. I think the main reason why god hates it he says it earlier in scripture – is that god is saying that it kills the opportunity for reconciliation yeah.

There is no chance now for this to be redeemed, because divorce has ended that opportunity as to where, with separation, there’s still a chance for redemption. Inside of that, a person can change. They can have opportunity to think they can. You can show them your conduct, even in you know, when you’re like, for instance, with kids, when you have kids in the middle of this stuff. When separation happens, a mom or a dad being willing to work with the other spouse on visiting and seeing the kids and whatever else and all those things you could show somebody wow, they really care about me that they’re making sure that i get these things, and I see these things whatever and sometimes somebody’s a deadbeat and they’re just hard to deal with in that situation, but that’s the thing i do.

I do think this, though i do think that there’s a defensive side of this, where you know where you’re you know you’re having to and we’ll talk about abuse in a second, where you’re having to protect and isolate. You know certain behaviors that that are going to affect you, your kids and i feel, like that’s almost a completely different thing at that point. You know we’ll talk about abuse, more we’re we’re not minimizing abuse. Yeah abuse is next, so we’re about to talk that for safety reasons, that’s right. Well, i also think, though, as we as we talk about this, that we are talking about the difference between separation and divorce.

You know so absolutely and when you realize how much energy should be put into a marriage to save it, then that if you’re single, it should cause you to think about how much energy you need to be putting into making sure you’re training yeah. That you’re not marrying an idiot, you know what i’m saying i mean marriage is a choice. Yeah be careful. I tell people it’s like buying a car man. You get a car from a lot of places.

You can get it from like a car lot. You can get it from a junk yard. You could go, have one just a record, drag it up in your yard and but if you’re trying to get back and forth to work, i would get one that ran first. You know yeah sure, and i mean you just cause: you bought a chevette when you drove it home, don’t make it a corvette, sure so sure so anyway, that most people don’t even know how to shove. It should have said prius she said: prius doesn’t become a porsche, that’s more, that’s newer!

So what about abuse? Let’S talk about that a little bit is this grounds for divorce and according not according to scripture. Again, we have but one reason for now: here’s here’s the thing: divorce versus separation, but yeah keep going, but you do have. You do have grounds definitely for separation and immediate separation, and here here’s where we’re coming from as those who work in and karen can chime in on this. But those of us who work on the front lines we believe of of spousal abuse divorce.

You know all this stuff, that’s going on. First and foremost, what we’re going to say is if you, your kids, are in danger or you’re being physically emotionally abused. You need to get out get out, i mean you need to get out. Definitely and there’s. There’S there’s help that’s available, but regardless you got to get out, you got to do that, get to safety.

That’S not we’re. Not you know. Getting an attorney to get a divorce is not priority. One when safety is an issue. Safety is an issue let’s get out, and so so there’s that now you say well, where do you see that in scripture first corinthians, 7, 13 verse 15?

If what we just read a minute ago, listen what he says, then he says, for god, has called you to live in peace. That’S a calling on our life, calling in commandment are harmonious with each other. A calling on our life is to live in peace and you’re, not living in peace. If you’re being abused you just you can’t do that um. Now i’m going to give another verse and i’m going to give a different angle on this verse and we’re going to talk about it.

Malachi 2, verses 13 through 16, 16

Um this verse is the verse that we used where god says he hates divorce, but i want you to listen to the whole verse, and this is one of those things where. How often is that we find ourselves going context context context, context context. This is important context, listen what god says and there’s another thing you do. You cover the altar of the lord, with tears with weeping and sighing um, because he no longer gives attention to the offering or accepts it with favor from your hands. So so the first thing that happens in this verse is that god, the bible says that god says you’re you’re all kinds of upset, because i’m not hearing your prayers, i’m not giving you favor, i’m not working in your life and i’m not blessing you all those Things are reality.

Okay, he said. That’S not happening. Here’S why verse 14

Yet you say for what reason so, in other words, you’re upset. Why are you not god? Why aren’t you doing this good stuff for me?

Why don’t you help me out? It says because the lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously. So, in other words, god says: you’ve dealt with your spouse treacherously and we’re going to see what he means by that and he’s going to define that in just a second though she is your marriage, companion and your wife by covenant. But no one has done this. Who has a remnant of the spirit?

So, in other words, god says that a person who has a spirit living in them and they’re living in harmony with the holy spirit who lives in us you’re not going to live deal with your spouse treacherously because the fruit of the spirit are very simple: love. Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness faithfulness and gentleness and self-control that’s what the holy spirit brings into us um, and he says you know that someone who has a spirit living in them doesn’t do that. Look at verse, 16, for i hate divorce, says the lord, so god’s walked through this whole thing, saying: hey the way, you’re treating your spouse. What you’re doing treacherously treating your spouse is a horrible thing. I don’t like i hate divorce, in other words, the way you’re treating them is a divorce pattern.

That’S what you’ve established he goes on. It says to him who covers his garment with violence, says the lord of armies, and so in other words, god says that this treacherous treatment, treacherous treatment of your spouse is violence, a garment covered in violence. This is what i believe, a clear-cut passage of scripture. That’S focusing on abuse to a spouse. Now abuse comes in a lot of forms, you know.

Sometimes we think physical, but sometimes the emotional abuse of a relationship. It may not show up as a bruise, yeah or or a cut, but it it fragments our soul. Um spouses don’t value their words. You know i mean you, don’t realize the things that you can say to your spouse, that just can crush them yeah and only you have the power to do that in your life. I mean it’s something it’s something even i had to learn in marriage being a pastor and everything it’s something i had to learn with the way that i was speaking and things that you say and jokes that you make and whatever you be careful man you you Have more authority and more weight in your spouse’s life than anyone else in their life you’re it even if they don’t say that or don’t act that way you have that it’s god-given.

It’S designed that way, and so i think that’s where you have to be careful and again, emotional abuse could be just as powerful as as physical abuse at times. Oh yeah so in different ways – and i think in that instance like we say our first move – get out get to safety, then once you’re in safety once you’re in safety from there we can figure out. We can begin to say, is this salvageable? Can this be saved? Can this be repaired?

Can this person you know, walk through this blah blah blah, but until you’re in safety? Your your your ability to see those things through is going to be marred you’re not going to be able to see it clearly because abuse is happening and that even if it’s not physical abuse, emotional abuse that emotional abuse, even though, like you said it’s not showing Up in a cut it’s building up bitterness, it’s building up hatred, you can’t fix your marriage and get it to where it needs to be whenever you just hate the other person’s guts, and so you got to have an opportunity to get out to get clear to Get some space and then from there you can begin to actually fix it, but we’re at like the two minute mark, so we got ta hurry karen. How often do you see? How often do you see abuse physical abuse in the the counseling stuff that you’re? I see it often, unfortunately wow yeah yeah uh.

You know there are some signs when couples come in sure, usually if the husband or the wife, i’ve seen it on both sides sure calls and wants to set up the appointment and then they call in between and want to control what goes on in. In the session there’s a lot of ear markers, yeah of abuse and then of course you know sometimes um. You know when we separate the the husband and the wife they’ll tell us things that they would not say in front of the other one. Of course, then we have the opportunity to give them resources. You know here’s your clear next step, um get out and of course, any time um.

There’S children involved. We act. You know immediately appropriate yeah yeah, that’s huge! Well, here’s! What we’re gon na do we’re gon na do a part.

Two part: two we’re gon na talk about marriage after divorce, we’re gon na talk about what does that look like when you’re trying to put the pieces back together um? What should you be thinking about when it comes to dating after a divorce and is eternal yeah? It doesn’t yeah? Are we gon na be married in heaven? That’S gon na be things we will talk about um, so there’s there’s a bunch left, that’s gon na be next week, part two we’ll be talking about divorce and and the aftermath of it and we’ll probably uh work on a few other things as we go go Through that as well, so we’re so glad you’re with us today.

I hope this is helpful. You please leave us a comment. We read every one if you’ve got a prayer request, we pray over everyone we’ll reply back to you. Personally, this is not um. You will not be left hanging, i promise you and we would certainly certainly appreciate the the input and the lack of the video is a big deal for us.

So if you do that, that’d be a super big help um. If this has been a blessing to you anyway, if it’s helped you, if this give you some some direction and maybe um something like that, let us know if you’re in a place right now, where your marriage is in trouble, um and you’re, finding the issue we We just finished on was abuse um we want to. We want you to reach out to us. If we can help you in any way, um our church um. We have a.

We have a phone number uh 501-833-hope h-o-p-e-4673 uh, so one it uh one, five, zero! One eight three, three, four, six, seven, three um. If you wan na reach out to us – and we can maybe help help you navigate some of that karen’s team um – does counseling here at the church. It’S free, we don’t charge a dime for it. We feel like that’s one of the greatest missions and ministries that god’s given us and we’ve helped.

We help couples. We help individuals, they counsel with children. They counsel with single people. They counsel with young and old. It does not matter um.

It’S we’ve counseled people with substance abuse, you name it i mean they. They cover it. Um karen and her team are absolutely incredible and by the way she has a podcast as well that you can follow and that’s on your facebook page right karen and care conversations. Yeah, so here’s what we’re going to do is we’re going to put a link in the description of this video so that you can follow that she does. How often do you do those podcasts once a week, so what what day is it thursday, every thursday?

So if you want to catch karen real practical, really good stuff, so if you want to catch her and and follow that, i would advise it. She’S always got something rich to talk about. I mean always good good, good good stuff, so so, anyway, until the next time we have a chance to see you. May god bless you if we can be a blessing to you, please let us see you next time: [, Music, ], you

Read More: Scott Harness Podcast – #011 – What Should A Christian Think About Divorce? Part 2

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